Skashion said:Listen, I did the stats on this. Dzeko's goal-scoring record at City when starting has been mediocre, around 160 mins per goal. Off the bench, it's been exceptional at 37 minutes per goal. This is not a myth, he's better off the bench. The point where you have to begin the discussion is why. Simply denying facts gets you nowhere.
I posted these on page 76:pominoz said:That's why i was waiting for the stats, it proves that Mancini is using him to the best advantage of this team.
Skashion said:Since the start of last season, in all comps:
11 goals in 407 minutes off the bench at an incredible rate of a goal every 37 minutes.
13 goals in 2157 minutes from starting at a rate of a goal every 165 minutes.
165/37 = 4.48 times more effective coming off the bench.
Now, a bit of a disparity would be expected because the whole point of substitutions is fresh players running at tired legs but 4.48 is staggering.
Skashion said:I posted these on page 76:pominoz said:That's why i was waiting for the stats, it proves that Mancini is using him to the best advantage of this team.
Skashion said:Since the start of last season, in all comps:
11 goals in 407 minutes off the bench at an incredible rate of a goal every 37 minutes.
13 goals in 2157 minutes from starting at a rate of a goal every 165 minutes.
165/37 = 4.48 times more effective coming off the bench.
Now, a bit of a disparity would be expected because the whole point of substitutions is fresh players running at tired legs but 4.48 is staggering.
Some are still choosing to ignore this fact but we shan't. We know the guy can score goals when starting. He did it at Wolfsburg, he does it for Bosnia, so why not City. My belief is that we need to create more options for him. Mancini is trying to do that with the 3-5-2 but it leaves us defensively vulnerable at the moment. Kolarov and Maicon work well, as I'm sure Micah would if employed as a wing-back. He seems uncomfortable with the right-side of the three, as does Clichy on the left. The right-side appears to have been solved by Zaba but there's still the Clichy problem. He was deservedly MoM against Spurs but he's had problems there when we've used it before. Maybe training has paid its dues. I think Mancini is trying to do it on the cheap a bit, which is fine but I'm sure Dzeko would thrive on some wingers. The other thing I think we're lacking is a deep-lying playmaker who plays as one. Yaya can do the job there, and that's one of the reasons I was so positive about signing him at the time, but indeed, he's been far more useful in a more advanced position. He played some fantastic balls from deep against Spurs though, it's in him, but a permanent deep-lying playmaker would be a move forward for us I reckon. I was hopeful Garcia might be a improvement in this respect but so far, not so good.
Blue Maverick said:For me it's simple, when Dzeko comes on as a sub we are usually chasing the game, it's high tempo with lots of balls going down the wings or we are been more direct, this suits Dzeko's type of game. When he starts we are playing tippy tappy football with a slow build up, everything very narrow hoping we can walk the ball into the net, this doesn't suit Dzeko and he will never thrive in that sort of game, I shudder to think what he would achieve with the rags with Valencia and Young supplying him and how much more direct they are. Mancini is quite rightly using Dzeko this way but don't blame Edin when he wants to leave because he doesn't want to be a bit part player no many how many goals he scores.
To quote other user on forum, "start Balotelli and sub after game starts for Dzeko", so he will score 2 or 3 goals coming from bench...pominoz said:Skashion said:Listen, I did the stats on this. Dzeko's goal-scoring record at City when starting has been mediocre, around 160 mins per goal. Off the bench, it's been exceptional at 37 minutes per goal. This is not a myth, he's better off the bench. The point where you have to begin the discussion is why. Simply denying facts gets you nowhere.
That's why i was waiting for the stats, it proves that Mancini is using him to the best advantage of this team.
AntiUnited said:Blue Maverick said:For me it's simple, when Dzeko comes on as a sub we are usually chasing the game, it's high tempo with lots of balls going down the wings or we are been more direct, this suits Dzeko's type of game. When he starts we are playing tippy tappy football with a slow build up, everything very narrow hoping we can walk the ball into the net, this doesn't suit Dzeko and he will never thrive in that sort of game, I shudder to think what he would achieve with the rags with Valencia and Young supplying him and how much more direct they are. Mancini is quite rightly using Dzeko this way but don't blame Edin when he wants to leave because he doesn't want to be a bit part player no many how many goals he scores.
They dont care mate ive been saying what u have been saying for ages on this thread. they
1. Ignore it cuz its fact and still hide behind this stupid fukin myth he can only score as a sub and blindfully ignore the style we play when we start games
2. They belive Kun can do no wrong even if he is playing dog shit atm.
3. Dzeko is not commited to the cause and is lazy does not give 100 percent
4. They keep talking about proof is in the pudding shit (harping on kuns goal tally last season) and yet dzeko is the top scorer and say his stats are shit as a starter even thought he has hardly started a game...
5. ive come to relise its prolly better for dzeko to move on lol. even if he wins the title for us again they will find more ways to slag / slight him under this false pretense ("Im not knocking the player but hes better as a sub" mlarky)
pudge said:Yeah, Ferguson offered Tevez a contract.._dreamer_ said:pudge said:If there's one thing you can say about Tevez is that he's a team player.
Leaves nothing on the pitch and has dug us out of as many if not more holes than Dzeko has
Such a team player, such a spirit. Not so long ago he was making fun of Mancini and cruising around Argentina while other teammates were sweating in your jersey.
When will you realize that putting "the best" 11 players together on the pitch doesn't necessarily mean that they will AS A GROUP give best results. In fact, it is usually the other way. You need to have 11 players on the pitch who understand & play for each other. The manager should do everything to create this chemistry among the players.
In my opinion Tevez is, despite of his amazing football qualities, a spoiler and if you have more players in the team like him, it is incredibly hard to develop aforementioned chemistry.
On the other hand, Dzeko is a top professional just like Aguero, Silva, Zaba... He plays for the team is not a drama queen. Even if he is - according to your opinion - not as good as Tevez, on a long term basis I personally think that he could be more valuable for the team than Tevez.
It is not coincidence that Ferguson let Tevez go. He could have kept him anytime but he didn't want him. I wonder why...
Tevez, in my eyes, is a ****.
But he's a world class player and that's all I care about. He IS better than Dzeko, he is arguably better than Aguero and as his record at City shows he has been and is vital to the team.
This season he's been nothing but a team player, dropping deep to get the ball, chasing back, hurrying the keepers and has 3 assists.
The original point that Tevez is "bad for the team" is what I had a problem with. I'm not trying to compare him with Dzeko or knock one to promote the other.
_dreamer_ said:pudge said:Yeah, Ferguson offered Tevez a contract.._dreamer_ said:Such a team player, such a spirit. Not so long ago he was making fun of Mancini and cruising around Argentina while other teammates were sweating in your jersey.
When will you realize that putting "the best" 11 players together on the pitch doesn't necessarily mean that they will AS A GROUP give best results. In fact, it is usually the other way. You need to have 11 players on the pitch who understand & play for each other. The manager should do everything to create this chemistry among the players.
In my opinion Tevez is, despite of his amazing football qualities, a spoiler and if you have more players in the team like him, it is incredibly hard to develop aforementioned chemistry.
On the other hand, Dzeko is a top professional just like Aguero, Silva, Zaba... He plays for the team is not a drama queen. Even if he is - according to your opinion - not as good as Tevez, on a long term basis I personally think that he could be more valuable for the team than Tevez.
It is not coincidence that Ferguson let Tevez go. He could have kept him anytime but he didn't want him. I wonder why...
Tevez, in my eyes, is a ****.
But he's a world class player and that's all I care about. He IS better than Dzeko, he is arguably better than Aguero and as his record at City shows he has been and is vital to the team.
This season he's been nothing but a team player, dropping deep to get the ball, chasing back, hurrying the keepers and has 3 assists.
The original point that Tevez is "bad for the team" is what I had a problem with. I'm not trying to compare him with Dzeko or knock one to promote the other.
There you have it.
You admit that he has shit attitude, yet you would gladly build your team around him. I repect your opinion, but I believe that on a long term basis the other approach would be better for the team.
I also agree with you that Tevez has abilities of a world class player, no doubt about that. In some areas he is undoubtly more skilled than Edin. However, you must also admit that Edin is in some other areas better than Tevez. In fact, they are completely different kind of strikers which makes your comparison almost worth nothing. You can't compare pears and apples. I mean, of course you can say that Tevez is more valuable striker for the team, but even this argument is on shaky legs judging by the recent performances of the team.
Isn't it true that City had a hard time scoring against many teams this season? Isn't it true that City was many times this season outplayed when they tried to play their usual game? Isn't it true that a team scored most of the goals when Edin was actually on the pitch? You can't ignore these facts forever, they do mean something.
It's a fact when I say that with Dzeko City gives a team another dimension and allows City to be more unpredictable when attacking. I believe that, among others, this unpredictability and switching on more direct play were one of the reasons for Dzeko late goals.
He and Aguero/Tevez complement each other, whereby I believe that his understanding with Aguero is slightly better. The team looks more dangerous when Dzeko is on the pitch. For all these reasons I believe that it would be better if Dzeko played with Aguero and not Tevez. In fact, it doesn't have to be Dzeko , it can be also Balotelli as long as he's on form and playing constantly good.
Tevez and Aguero are not so productive together because they are same type of players and City doesn't have the quality to destroy teams with their tika taka like Barcelona. At the beginning of the last season it sure looked as thay could become Barca No. 2, but since than the team has gone backwards and it's not getting any better with time. Therefore I'll never understand why Mancini won't give up on this and instruct players to play with more width and on fast breaks. I am sure that the team would look much more dangerous.