English are 'anti-semitic'

[SWP's back]

Britain isn't anti-Semetic, this is just propaganda from those evil, insidious Jews who control the world's media and want to bring down society as we know it so that they can make more money.

See what you did there.

 

[supercity36]

im not pro palestinian or really anti isreal, but why did they have to take anyones land they didnt have any right to.

I agree totally with your point and do not agree one iota with their actions, just saying there is some mitigation to why they did what they did as a result of the holocaust. Its just that the the Palestinians were dispossessed to make way for a group who had suffered greatly. I don't mind if a starving person steals from me, just don't much like it if they then malign me.

ok mate, im sending 20 homeless, starving people round to your house. by your rules you'll happily put them up with full board? not saying your poor, but poor being robbed by the poorer isnt going to help anyway, especially when religion is involved.

 

[masterwig]

Dislike of Israel is not dislike of Jews.

Personally I have Israel down as a disgusting terrorist state. Doesn't mean I think all Jews are terrorists.

 

[eagle]

I agree totally with your point and do not agree one iota with their actions, just saying there is some mitigation to why they did what they did as a result of the holocaust. Its just that the the Palestinians were dispossessed to make way for a group who had suffered greatly. I don't mind if a starving person steals from me, just don't much like it if they then malign me.

ok mate, im sending 20 homeless, starving people round to your house. by your rules you'll happily put them up with full board? not saying your poor, but poor being robbed by the poorer isnt going to help anyway, especially when religion is involved.

If we all did this then poverty would be eradicated. Good idea.

-- Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:15 pm --

Dislike of Israel is not dislike of Jews.

Personally I have Israel down as a disgusting terrorist state. Doesn't mean I think all Jews are terrorists.

No the pro Israelis or Zionists would have you believe that was the job of the Muslims. Thats double speak but you have to credit the Israeli lobby for being able to outmanoeuvre the Arabs in this respect and have them painted as the bad guys.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I can understand much of the pro Palestinian views on this thread, but would also suggest that what many of us see as Israeli excess is a natural response from people who went through the "shoah" or holocaust. The Palestinians are paying the price for the atrocious actions of the previous German generation.

im not pro palestinian or really anti isreal, but why did they have to take anyones land they didnt have any right to.

Tell me how they took land they didn't have a right to. I suspect you really don't understand the history of this.

 

[tueartsboots]

im not pro palestinian or really anti isreal, but why did they have to take anyones land they didnt have any right to.

Tell me how they took land they didn't have a right to. I suspect you really don't understand the history of this.

UN Resolution 181, the inception of the State of Israel
Part II. - Boundaries
A. THE ARAB STATE
The area of the Arab State in Western Galilee is bounded on the west by the Mediterranean and on the north by the frontier of the Lebanon from Ras en Naqura to a point north of Saliha. From there the boundary proceeds southwards, leaving the built-up area of Saliha in the Arab State, to join the southernmost point of this village. There it follows the western boundary line of the villages of 'Alma, Rihaniya and Teitaba, thence following the northern boundary line of Meirun village to join the Acre-Safad Sub-District boundary line. It follows this line to a point west of Es Sammu'i village and joins it again at the northernmost point of Farradiya. Thence it follows the sub-district boundary line to the Acre-Safad main road. From here it follows the western boundary of Kafr-I'nan village until it reaches the Tiberias-Acre Sub-District boundary line, passing to the west of the junction of the Acre-Safad and Lubiya-Kafr-I'nan roads. From the south-west corner of Kafr-I'nan village the boundary line follows the western boundary of the Tiberias Sub-District to a point close to the boundary line between the villages of Maghar and 'Eilabun, thence bulging out to the west to include as much of the eastern part of the plain of Battuf as is necessary for the reservoir proposed by the Jewish Agency for the irrigation of lands to the south and east.

The boundary rejoins the Tiberias Sub-District boundary at a point on the Nazareth-Tiberias road south-east of the built-up area of Tur'an; thence it runs southwards, at first following the sub-district boundary and then passing between the Kadoorie Agricultural School and Mount Tabor, to a point due south at the base of Mount Tabor. From here it runs due west, parallel to the horizontal grid line 230, to the north-east corner of the village lands of Tel Adashim. It then runs to the northwest corner of these lands, whence it turns south and west so as to include in the Arab State the sources of the Nazareth water supply in Yafa village. On reaching Ginneiger it follows the eastern, northern and western boundaries of the lands of this village to their south-west comer, whence it proceeds in a straight line to a point on the Haifa-Afula railway on the boundary between the villages of Sarid and El-Mujeidil. This is the point of intersection. The south-western boundary of the area of the Arab State in Galilee takes a line from this point, passing northwards along the eastern boundaries of Sarid and Gevat to the north-eastern corner of Nahalal, proceeding thence across the land of Kefar ha Horesh to a central point on the southern boundary of the village of 'Ilut, thence westwards along that village boundary to the eastern boundary of Beit Lahm, thence northwards and north-eastwards along its western boundary to the north-eastern corner of Waldheim and thence north-westwards across the village lands of Shafa 'Amr to the southeastern corner of Ramat Yohanan. From here it runs due north-north-east to a point on the Shafa 'Amr-Haifa road, west of its junction with the road of I'billin. From there it proceeds north-east to a point on the southern boundary of I'billin situated to the west of the I'billin-Birwa road. Thence along that boundary to its westernmost point, whence it turns to the north, follows across the village land of Tamra to the north-westernmost corner and along the western boundary of Julis until it reaches the Acre-Safad road. It then runs westwards along the southern side of the Safad-Acre road to the Galilee-Haifa District boundary, from which point it follows that boundary to the sea.

The boundary of the hill country of Samaria and Judea starts on the Jordan River at the Wadi Malih south-east of Beisan and runs due west to meet the Beisan-Jericho road and then follows the western side of that road in a north-westerly direction to the junction of the boundaries of the Sub-Districts of Beisan, Nablus, and Jenin. From that point it follows the Nablus-Jenin sub-District boundary westwards for a distance of about three kilometres and then turns north-westwards, passing to the east of the built-up areas of the villages of Jalbun and Faqqu'a, to the boundary of the Sub-Districts of Jenin and Beisan at a point northeast of Nuris. Thence it proceeds first northwestwards to a point due north of the built-up area of Zie'in and then westwards to the Afula-Jenin railway, thence north-westwards along the District boundary line to the point of intersection on the Hejaz railway. From here the boundary runs southwestwards, including the built-up area and some of the land of the village of Kh. Lid in the Arab State to cross the Haifa-Jenin road at a point on the district boundary between Haifa and Samaria west of El- Mansi. It follows this boundary to the southernmost point of the village of El-Buteimat. From here it follows the northern and eastern boundaries of the village of Ar'ara rejoining the Haifa-Samaria district boundary at Wadi 'Ara, and thence proceeding south-south-westwards in an approximately straight line joining up with the western boundary of Qaqun to a point east of the railway line on the eastern boundary of Qaqun village. From here it runs along the railway line some distance to the east of it to a point just east of the Tulkarm railway station. Thence the boundary follows a line half-way between the railway and the Tulkarm-Qalqiliya-Jaljuliya and Ras El-Ein road to a point just east of Ras El-Ein station, whence it proceeds along the railway some distance to the east of it to the point on the railway line south of the junction of the Haifa-Lydda and Beit Nabala lines, whence it proceeds along the southern border of Lydda airport to its south-west corner, thence in a south-westerly direction to a point just west of the built-up area of Sarafand El 'Amar, whence it turns south, passing just to the west of the built-up area of Abu El-Fadil to the north-east corner of the lands of Beer Ya'aqov. (The boundary line should be so demarcated as to allow direct access from the Arab State to the airport.) Thence the boundary line follows the western and southern boundaries of Ramle village, to the north-east corner of El Na'ana village, thence in a straight line to the southernmost point of El Barriya, along the eastern boundary of that village and the southern boundary of 'Innaba village. Thence it turns north to follow the southern side of the Jaffa-Jerusalem road until El-Qubab, whence it follows the road to the boundary of Abu-Shusha. It runs along the eastern boundaries of Abu Shusha, Seidun, Hulda to the southernmost point of Hulda, thence westwards in a straight line to the north-eastern corner of Umm Kalkha, thence following the northern boundaries of Umm Kalkha, Qazaza and the northern and western boundaries of Mukhezin to the Gaza District boundary and thence runs across the village lands of El-Mismiya El-Kabira, and Yasur to the southern point of intersection, which is midway between the built-up areas of Yasur and Batani Sharqi.

From the southern point of intersection the boundary lines run north-westwards between the villages of Gan Yavne and Barqa to the sea at a point half way between Nabi Yunis and Minat El-Qila, and south-eastwards to a point west of Qastina, whence it turns in a south-westerly direction, passing to the east of the built-up areas of Es Sawafir Esh Sharqiya and 'Ibdis. From the south-east corner of 'Ibdis village it runs to a point southwest of the built-up area of Beit 'Affa, crossing the Hebron-El-Majdal road just to the west of the built-up area of 'Iraq Suweidan. Thence it proceeds southward along the western village boundary of El-Faluja to the Beersheba Sub-District boundary. It then runs across the tribal lands of 'Arab El-Jubarat to a point on the boundary between the Sub-Districts of Beersheba and Hebron north of Kh. Khuweilifa, whence it proceeds in a south-westerly direction to a point on the Beersheba-Gaza main road two kilometres to the north-west of the town. It then turns south-eastwards to reach Wadi Sab' at a point situated one kilometer to the west of it. From here it turns north-eastwards and proceeds along Wadi Sab' and along the Beersheba-Hebron road for a distance of one kilometer, whence it turns eastwards and runs in a straight line to Kh. Kuseifa to join the Beersheba-Hebron Sub-District boundary. It then follows the Beersheba-Hebron boundary eastwards to a point north of Ras Ez-Zuweira, only departing from it so as to cut across the base of the indentation between vertical grid lines 150 and 160.

About five kilometres north-east of Ras Ez-Zuweira it turns north, excluding from the Arab State a strip along the coast of the Dead Sea not more than seven kilometres in depth, as far as 'Ein Geddi, whence it turns due east to join the Transjordan frontier in the Dead Sea.

The northern boundary of the Arab section of the coastal plain runs from a point between Minat El-Qila and Nabi Yunis, passing between the built-up areas of Gan Yavne and Barqa to the point of intersection. From here it turns south-westwards, running across the lands of Batani Sharqi, along the eastern boundary of the lands of Beit Daras and across the lands of Julis, leaving the built-up areas of Batani Sharqi and Julis to the westwards, as far as the north-west corner of the lands of Beit-Tima. Thence it runs east of El-Jiya across the village lands of El-Barbara along the eastern boundaries of the villages of Beit Jirja, Deir Suneid and Dimra. From the south-east corner of Dimra the boundary passes across the lands of Beit Hanun, leaving the Jewish lands of Nir-Am to the eastwards. From the south-east corner of Beit Hanun the line runs south-west to a point south of the parallel grid line 100, then turns north-west for two kilometres, turning again in a southwesterly direction and continuing in an almost straight line to the north-west corner of the village lands of Kirbet Ikhza'a. From there it follows the boundary line of this village to its southernmost point. It then runs in a southerly direction along the vertical grid line 90 to its junction with the horizontal grid line 70. It then turns south-eastwards to Kh. El-Ruheiba and then proceeds in a southerly direction to a point known as El-Baha, beyond which it crosses the Beersheba-EI 'Auja main road to the west of Kh. El-Mushrifa. From there it joins Wadi El-Zaiyatin just to the west of El-Subeita. From there it turns to the north-east and then to the south-east following this Wadi and passes to the east of 'Abda to join Wadi Nafkh. It then bulges to the south-west along Wadi Nafkh, Wadi 'Ajrim and Wadi Lassan to the point where Wadi Lassan crosses the Egyptian frontier.

The area of the Arab enclave of Jaffa consists of that part of the town-planning area of Jaffa which lies to the west of the Jewish quarters lying south of Tel-Aviv, to the west of the continuation of Herzl street up to its junction with the Jaffa-Jerusalem road, to the south-west of the section of the Jaffa-Jerusalem road lying south-east of that junction, to the west of Miqve Yisrael lands, to the northwest of Holon local council area, to the north of the line linking up the north-west corner of Holon with the northeast corner of Bat Yam local council area and to the north of Bat Yam local council area. The question of Karton quarter will be decided by the Boundary Commission, bearing in mind among other considerations the desirability of including the smallest possible number of its Arab inhabitants and the largest possible number of its Jewish inhabitants in the Jewish State.

B. THE JEWISH STATE
The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Trans-jordan. It includes the whole of the Huleh Basin, Lake Tiberias, the whole of the Beisan Sub-District, the boundary line being extended to the crest of the Gilboa mountains and the Wadi Malih. From there the Jewish State extends north-west, following the boundary described in respect of the Arab State. The Jewish section of the coastal plain extends from a point between Minat El-Qila and Nabi Yunis in the Gaza Sub-District and includes the towns of Haifa and Tel-Aviv, leaving Jaffa as an enclave of the Arab State. The eastern frontier of the Jewish State follows the boundary described in respect of the Arab State.

The Beersheba area comprises the whole of the Beersheba Sub-District, including the Negeb and the eastern part of the Gaza Sub-District, but excluding the town of Beersheba and those areas described in respect of the Arab State. It includes also a strip of land along the Dead Sea stretching from the Beersheba-Hebron Sub-District boundary line to 'Ein Geddi, as described in respect of the Arab State.

 

[Skashion]

PB, what are your views of 'transfer' under Plan Dalet?

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Israel did not exist before 1947(?), so therefore they have been given land they were gifted and have then set out to take more, having a chip on your shoulder for something that happened over 60 years ago is no excuse to take it out on others, the holocaust is not an excuse and never will be.

For me 1 country united with equal rights and opportunities for all cultures and a democratically elected government with anti-racial hatred laws with UN resolutions, checks and independent investigations into any cases as such is the way forward, but both sides need to learn that religion is a choice, the past has happened, stop being paranoid and accept each other, and both sides have to work together to eradicate fundamentalist extremism in both their cultures.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

PB, what are your views of 'transfer' under Plan Dalet?

It was war and both sides see it differently but I don't doubt that there was probably some strategic intent to clear areas of potentially hostile Arabs. I'm sure the Arabs had their equivalent plan and in areas where they did make military gains they killed Jews that had surrendered. The Arab League implemented its own plan when it encouraged its members to expel Jews from thier countries nad, as I explained earlier, there were over 800,000 Jewish refugees, most of whom went to Israel and the majority of the rest to France. Once again, wrong on both sides but only one ever gets highlighted.

Israel did not exist before 1947(?), so therefore they have been given land they were gifted and have then set out to take more,

I hate these simplistic statements. Israel didn't exist (although a Jewish state had) but neither was there ever a sovereign state called Palestine. So they didn't get anything that belonged to someone else. The territory had been ruled by a series of colonial powers up to and including the British occupation in 1917. The British mandate, approved by the League of Nations in 1922, gave them the right to divide the territory in any way they saw fit.

Both Jews and Arabs owned land and lived there at the time and Jews continued ot flee persecution in Eastern Europe, with approximately 350k legally entering up to 1945, at which point they were one third of the population. There was still no Arab state but the British were looking at a two state solution when war broke out. Arab unrest started in 1920's and Jewish unrest in 1939, when an immigration cap was put in place.

After the war the Anglo American commission recommended the creation of a federal state not dominated by either Jews or Arabs and the immediate admission of another 100,000, mostly displaced, Jews. The US and UK had differing views and so Britain handed the problem over to the UN.

They appointed a committee (UNSCOP) to review the situation and recommend a solution. The majority favoured partition and this was passed by the UN General Assembly, welcomed by the Jews but rejected by the Arabs. The British refused to implement it and so gave up their mandate in May 1948.

At that point Israel declared statehood over its allotted territory and was attacked by a number of Arab armies. The result of that conflict was the pre-1967 borders, which formed the basis of modern Israel and were eventually accepted by Egypt & Jordan.

However Egypt and Jordan annexed the respective territories under their control (Gaza & the West Bank) but then lost those in 1967, which is where the modern problems started.

The ideal solution would have been a secular state (as recommended by the Anglo-American commission but this was deemed infeasible in practice for various reasons.

 

[Skashion]

PB, what are your views of 'transfer' under Plan Dalet?

It was war and both sides see it differently but I don't doubt that there was probably some strategic intent to clear areas of potentially hostile Arabs. I'm sure the Arabs had their equivalent plan and in areas where they did make military gains they killed Jews that had surrendered. The Arab League implemented its own plan when it encouraged its members to expel Jews from thier countries nad, as I explained earlier, there were over 800,000 Jewish refugees, most of whom went to Israel and the majority of the rest to France. Once again, wrong on both sides but only one ever gets highlighted.

I think one of the basic points of disagreement between you and I on this is that you see this as an Israeli/Arab conflict whereas I see it as Israeli/Palestinian. I do not hold the Palestinians accountable for the many wrongs committed by Arab forces/countries, specifically Egypt and Jordan, supposedly in their name. I see the balance as strongly against the Palestinians whereas I could see how one might view the balance against the Arabs far more evenly.