Etihad Campus, Stadium and Collar Site Development Thread

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Shaelumstash said:
Ok so the club spends £50m building the new stand.

It sells 6000 tickets at £299.

That's revenue of £1,749,000 a season.

After V.A.T is deducted it's £1,435,200

So using a simple calculation, not allowing for inflation or interest, it would take 35 years before the club made a single penny from the investment.

It doesn't really sound like the deal of the century to me.

Forget how big Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and West Ham's stadiums are, let them worry about that. If theirs are 3 or 4 thousand seats bigger, is it going to make us slip behind in to oblivion? Of course not.

I'm sure we'll only expand when it makes viable commercial sense, and that's how it should be.
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Surely it would affect commercial deals too? Not to mention matchday spending.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Ok so the club spends £50m building the new stand.

It sells 6000 tickets at £299.

That's revenue of £1,749,000 a season.

After V.A.T is deducted it's £1,435,200

So using a simple calculation, not allowing for inflation or interest, it would take 35 years before the club made a single penny from the investment.

It doesn't really sound like the deal of the century to me.

Forget how big Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and West Ham's stadiums are, let them worry about that. If theirs are 3 or 4 thousand seats bigger, is it going to make us slip behind in to oblivion? Of course not.

I'm sure we'll only expand when it makes viable commercial sense, and that's how it should be.
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If you get 60,000 plus fans ever week , that attracts bigger and better sponsorships for one, regardless of what the additional fans buy on a match day.

If the plans for the leisure, retail and hotels do come to fruition add that aswell.

Our owners are in this not only as an investment, this is a PR exercise for Abu Dhabi. And as that alone it has been a incredible success story.

Abu Dhabi brought Formula 1 to it shores, it built a stunning track and facilities at enormous cost, cost that will never be returned from the race itself. But like City a financial return was not the intention, the promotion of Abu Dhabi was and it again has been an incredible success.
 
I am not in the least worried what are capacity is, but I think you will find our owners are.
 
ColinLee said:
Surely it would affect commercial deals too? Not to mention matchday spending.
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I'm not too sure commercial deals would be too affected? The Etihad deal certainly wouldn't be. Are Nike going to increase their 12m a year to 15m because the capacity has increased a few thousand? Are Coco Joy going to give us 2m instead of 1m? I don't think they are.

I'm sure match day revenue from food and beverage would increase, but obviously other costs like extra staffing, policing, cleaning etc goes up too.

I think the last expansion made commercial sense because they could offer cheap tickets in the new stand, but vastly increase prices on the middle tier of the Colin Bell and East Stand to make them semi-corporate.

If we were to just build a new stand and fill it full of £299 season tickets, while not increasing prices elsewhere, while it's great for the fans, it doesn't really make financial sense for the club.

Our owner is the best thing that's ever happened to the club, but he's not out to run a charity for City fans to watch some of the best players in the world for peanuts. I don't actually think he'll ever take a penny out of the club, but he want it to be self sustainable and you can't fault him for that.

If we had a different ownership model, let's say the Barca model where the fans own the club. If the vote was put to the shareholders (fans) "Shall we spend £50m on this expansion? It will take 35 years to pay for itself, and will mean either we have to spend less on players and have a wose team, or the shareholders have to find the money themselves by donating it or havibg a large increase in their own ticket prices" how many would vote to build it? It's different when it's your own money.
 
Shaelumstash said:
I'm not too sure commercial deals would be too affected? The Etihad deal certainly wouldn't be. Are Nike going to increase their 12m a year to 15m because the capacity has increased a few thousand? Are Coco Joy going to give us 2m instead of 1m? I don't think they are.

I'm sure match day revenue from food and beverage would increase, but obviously other costs like extra staffing, policing, cleaning etc goes up too.

I think the last expansion made commercial sense because they could offer cheap tickets in the new stand, but vastly increase prices on the middle tier of the Colin Bell and East Stand to make them semi-corporate.

If we were to just build a new stand and fill it full of £299 season tickets, while not increasing prices elsewhere, while it's great for the fans, it doesn't really make financial sense for the club.

Our owner is the best thing that's ever happened to the club, but he's not out to run a charity for City fans to watch some of the best players in the world for peanuts. I don't actually think he'll ever take a penny out of the club, but he want it to be self sustainable and you can't fault him for that.

If we had a different ownership model, let's say the Barca model where the fans own the club. If the vote was put to the shareholders (fans) "Shall we spend £50m on this expansion? It will take 35 years to pay for itself, and will mean either we have to spend less on players and have a wose team, or the shareholders have to find the money themselves by donating it or havibg a large increase in their own ticket prices" how many would vote to build it? It's different when it's your own money.
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Are Nike going to increase there deal with us due to increased capacity....yes

But as I said this is not an ordinary business model. If it was I would totally agree with you, further expansion could not be justified because of finances.

Manchester City represent Abu Dhabi, and they only want the best, the VERY best.

And Manchester City Football Club WILL get the best, whatever the cost.
 
Keeper! said:
Are Nike going to increase there deal with us due to increased capacity....yes

But as I said this is not an ordinary business model. If it was I would totally agree with you, further expansion could not be justified because of finances.

Manchester City represent Abu Dhabi, and they only want the best, the VERY best.

And Manchester City Football Club WILL get the best, whatever the cost.
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Maybe but when ?

Next season the spend will be on the team and the manager, unless our owner sees infrastructure as a separate project. currently the stadium is not the biggest priority. for spend.
Our owner may want the AD reflection but would he really just throw money at it irrespective of cost and in a way confirm the fears that brought about FFP and the need to stop our owner?

Seem to remember that a new stadium on the same site was always a preferred route but the Council insisted it went the way how it is currently going.
 
Keeper! said:
Are Nike going to increase there deal with us due to increased capacity....yes

But as I said this is not an ordinary business model. If it was I would totally agree with you, further expansion could not be justified because of finances.

Manchester City represent Abu Dhabi, and they only want the best, the VERY best.

And Manchester City Football Club WILL get the best, whatever the cost.
Click to expand...

So you think Nike will just donate us an extra few million because we've got a slightly bigger stadium? Or do you think it was written in to the original contract?

I appreciate the club is used as a marketing vehicle for Abu Dhabi and they want nothing but the best. The problem is mate, at the moment we have thousands of season ticket holders who don't bother to turn up to half a dozen games a season, leaving huge swathes of empty seats.

This gets widely reported in the press as our fans being apathetic and plastic. I'm sure that doesn't play too well in Abu Dhabi.

If we increased the capacity by a further 6k at current rates of demand it's likely that this problem will only increase further. So far from an expansion painting Abu Dhabi in a positive light, it could actually have the reverse affect.

I don't care how the press report on us personally. But I think looking objectively, the expansion doesn't make financial sense. It doesn't make PR sense. And the only reason people are calling for it is because they don't like the idea of Liverpool, West Ham, Spurs and Chelsea having a bigger stadium than us.

Now let's hope Guardiola completely re-invigorates the club, we play attacking, exciting football, score loads of goals, we become every kid's favourite team and we go on to win loads of trophies and we sell out every game. If that happens, it might be time to look at expanding, but personally I don't think now is the right time.
 
Shaelumstash said:
So you think Nike will just donate us an extra few million because we've got a slightly bigger stadium? Or do you think it was written in to the original contract?

I appreciate the club is used as a marketing vehicle for Abu Dhabi and they want nothing but the best. The problem is mate, at the moment we have thousands of season ticket holders who don't bother to turn up to half a dozen games a season, leaving huge swathes of empty seats.

This gets widely reported in the press as our fans being apathetic and plastic. I'm sure that doesn't play too well in Abu Dhabi.

If we increased the capacity by a further 6k at current rates of demand it's likely that this problem will only increase further. So far from an expansion painting Abu Dhabi in a positive light, it could actually have the reverse affect.

I don't care how the press report on us personally. But I think looking objectively, the expansion doesn't make financial sense. It doesn't make PR sense. And the only reason people are calling for it is because they don't like the idea of Liverpool, West Ham, Spurs and Chelsea having a bigger stadium than us.

Now let's hope Guardiola completely re-invigorates the club, we play attacking, exciting football, score loads of goals, we become every kid's favourite team and we go on to win loads of trophies and we sell out every game. If that happens, it might be time to look at expanding, but personally I don't think now is the right time.
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The lobsidedness and roof supports in the corner disturb me - I like Symmetry and balance in a stadium. That's why I loved Maine Road so much.
 
Shaelumstash said:
So you think Nike will just donate us an extra few million because we've got a slightly bigger stadium? Or do you think it was written in to the original contract?

I appreciate the club is used as a marketing vehicle for Abu Dhabi and they want nothing but the best. The problem is mate, at the moment we have thousands of season ticket holders who don't bother to turn up to half a dozen games a season, leaving huge swathes of empty seats.

This gets widely reported in the press as our fans being apathetic and plastic. I'm sure that doesn't play too well in Abu Dhabi.

If we increased the capacity by a further 6k at current rates of demand it's likely that this problem will only increase further. So far from an expansion painting Abu Dhabi in a positive light, it could actually have the reverse affect.

I don't care how the press report on us personally. But I think looking objectively, the expansion doesn't make financial sense. It doesn't make PR sense. And the only reason people are calling for it is because they don't like the idea of Liverpool, West Ham, Spurs and Chelsea having a bigger stadium than us.

Now let's hope Guardiola completely re-invigorates the club, we play attacking, exciting football, score loads of goals, we become every kid's favourite team and we go on to win loads of trophies and we sell out every game. If that happens, it might be time to look at expanding, but personally I don't think now is the right time.
Click to expand...

Those fans that don't go.......I know of thousands of fans who can no longer go, due to the cost's and difficulty in getting tickets. This does not only apply to City I might add. There are a considerable number of fans who want to go.

What an incredible thing it would be for Sheik Mansour to complete a very high capacity stadium, that had incredible corporate facilities but also 10,000's seat available at reasonable cost to the fans who are now priced of watching the club they love.

On the Nike deal....how do you think Nike or any other manufacturer price up a sponsorship deal>? Units sold that's how, hence why are deal is considerably less than the rags, Liverpool and even Arsenal. You put an extra 10,000 people in the stadium each week, some of those fans are going to buy kit/merchandise, that's going to raise the income from Nike considerably.

Watch West Ham's next few sponsorship deals, they will be considerably higher than of recent, why, 60,000 punters every game and playing in the Olympic Stadium, not the sh1t hole that was Upton Park.

Re the Etihad deal, I think you will be shocked in a few weeks time, Etihad are utterly overjoyed with our deal and there will be a very serious increase in that deal pending.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Ok so the club spends £50m building the new stand.

It sells 6000 tickets at £299.

That's revenue of £1,749,000 a season.

After V.A.T is deducted it's £1,435,200

So using a simple calculation, not allowing for inflation or interest, it would take 35 years before the club made a single penny from the investment.

It doesn't really sound like the deal of the century to me.

Forget how big Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and West Ham's stadiums are, let them worry about that. If theirs are 3 or 4 thousand seats bigger, is it going to make us slip behind in to oblivion? Of course not.

I'm sure we'll only expand when it makes viable commercial sense, and that's how it should be.
Click to expand...

How much is made through match day food, drink and programme sales? Would 6000 extra fans make any significant headway there?
 
Shaelumstash said:
So you think Nike will just donate us an extra few million because we've got a slightly bigger stadium? Or do you think it was written in to the original contract?

I appreciate the club is used as a marketing vehicle for Abu Dhabi and they want nothing but the best. The problem is mate, at the moment we have thousands of season ticket holders who don't bother to turn up to half a dozen games a season, leaving huge swathes of empty seats.

This gets widely reported in the press as our fans being apathetic and plastic. I'm sure that doesn't play too well in Abu Dhabi.

If we increased the capacity by a further 6k at current rates of demand it's likely that this problem will only increase further. So far from an expansion painting Abu Dhabi in a positive light, it could actually have the reverse affect.

I don't care how the press report on us personally. But I think looking objectively, the expansion doesn't make financial sense. It doesn't make PR sense. And the only reason people are calling for it is because they don't like the idea of Liverpool, West Ham, Spurs and Chelsea having a bigger stadium than us.

Now let's hope Guardiola completely re-invigorates the club, we play attacking, exciting football, score loads of goals, we become every kid's favourite team and we go on to win loads of trophies and we sell out every game. If that happens, it might be time to look at expanding, but personally I don't think now is the right time.
Click to expand...

I see 100'0s of empty seats nearly everytime I see Bara play in the Camp Nou, but I never here it said against them.

Stop worrying about what the media say about us.
 
worsleyweb said:
The lobsidedness and roof supports in the corner disturb me - I like Symmetry and balance in a stadium. That's why I loved Maine Road so much.
Click to expand...
The original plans for Maine rd were very good with the Kippax roof to match the Main stand and the Platt lane to match the North stand. How it turned out was a shitty mess.
 
mac said:
The original plans for Maine rd were very good with the Kippax roof to match the Main stand and the Platt lane to match the North stand. How it turned out was a shitty mess.
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That's very true.

I had Francis Lee's blue print of how he originally wanted to redevelop Maine Road and it looked fantastic.

In saying that, leaving Maine Road and going to the Etihad was the making of us.
 
Shaelumstash said:
Ok so the club spends £50m building the new stand.

It sells 6000 tickets at £299.

That's revenue of £1,749,000 a season.

After V.A.T is deducted it's £1,435,200

So using a simple calculation, not allowing for inflation or interest, it would take 35 years before the club made a single penny from the investment.

It doesn't really sound like the deal of the century to me.

Forget how big Liverpool, Spurs, Chelsea and West Ham's stadiums are, let them worry about that. If theirs are 3 or 4 thousand seats bigger, is it going to make us slip behind in to oblivion? Of course not.

I'm sure we'll only expand when it makes viable commercial sense, and that's how it should be.
Click to expand...
£50 million on a stand accommodating 6,000 people? You are probably rather too high. It works out at £8,333 per seat. It would be normally around be £3,500 to £4,000 per seat. At £4,000 per seat the capital cost would be £24 million.

Secondly who says that the season tickets will be sold at £299 per person for evermore? There are also cup matches to take into account. On the South Stand only a small proportion were sold at £299, most were sold at a higher price. An extra 6,000 seats would mean a lot more people buying food and drinks inside and outside the stadium.

However let's go with a revenue of £1,500,000 per annum. So a revenue stream of £1.5 million per annum over the next thirty years discounted to present value at 5% discount rate gives a present value of just over £23 million. So it is not far off breaking even before you take account of inflation enabling prices to be increased. My seat in the corner of the Colin Bell Stand and the North Stand costs £600 for Platinum. 45 years ago I was paying £15 for a North Stand season ticket at Maine Road. Remember that inflation will not affect capital costs but will increase revenue considerably.

Of course you are right, expansion does not make commercial sense by itself. Had we stuck at 44,000 capacity, there would have been scope to increase season ticket and walk up prices considerably while still filling the stadium. Chelsea have been doing that for years as have Spurs and Liverpool. Expansion means that season ticket prices have to be kept low. That is rather short-sighted as stadium capacity matters when striking commercial deals. That is why Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea are all expanding or building new stadia.

Expansion will come when they think it can be filled simple as that. It's only been one season since an extra 6,000 seats were added. They have generally been filled apart from League Cup matches and low profile European games.
 
Keeper! said:
I see 100'0s of empty seats nearly everytime I see Bara play in the Camp Nou, but I never here it said against them.

Stop worrying about what the media say about us.
Click to expand...

Did you read my full post mate?

I'm guessing you missed this line:

"I don't care how the press report on us personally."
 
Keeper! said:
That's very true.

I had Francis Lee's blue print of how he originally wanted to redevelop Maine Road and it looked fantastic.

In saying that, leaving Maine Road and going to the Etihad was the making of us.[/QUOTE
The original plans I saw were from the Swales era I think about 84. The plans were in a program but it wasn't a first team program. My memory is crap though.
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Are we not part of the development of 6000 new homes in the area. That is surely a driver for expansion. We need some way of blocking off 3rd level when we know gate is low. Perhaps season tickets on a cup scheme get a seat for league and a seat for cups (carling cup) so the stadium is full on level 1 and 2
 
Keeper! said:
That's very true.

I had Francis Lee's blue print of how he originally wanted to redevelop Maine Road and it looked fantastic.

In saying that, leaving Maine Road and going to the Etihad was the making of us.
Click to expand...

Yeah it did but when finished it would only hold 44k back then it would seem decent now its around 16k not big enough
 
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