EU referendum deal (title edited)

  • Thread starter Thread starter mat
  • Start date Start date
To me it's quite simple. If you join a club you accept its rules or you don't join. What you don't do is join, object to the rules that don't suit you then demand they don't apply to you and that you want some different ones that do suit you. Imagine us (or any club) demanding of the Premier League that we are exempt from the laws on handball or offside? We'd be told to sling our hook.

So we're either a member on the same terms agreed by the other member nations or we're not a member at all. And having been an enthusiastic supporter of our original entry, I want out now.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
To me it's quite simple. If you join a club you accept its rules or you don't join. What you don't do is join, object to the rules that don't suit you then demand they don't apply to you and that you want some different ones that do suit you. Imagine us (or any club) demanding of the Premier League that we are exempt from the laws on handball or offside? We'd be told to sling our hook.

So we're either a member on the same terms agreed by the other member nations or we're not a member at all. And having been an enthusiastic supporter of our original entry, I want out now.
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Given that we seem to think its ok for anyone coming here to kick off and demand we change our rules for them....its surely no suprise that Cameron would think the rest of Europe is equally stupid.
 
mat said:
Scottish vote all over again.
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That's how I see it. A largely sceptical public will be brow beaten into voting to stay in by warnings of economic disaster, and promises to curb mass immigration and to end ever closer union. Once this referendum is out of the way it will be business as usual and those who reluctantly voted to stay in will be feeling that they've been duped.
 
CityStu said:
You can be both pro EU and pro referendum. In fact both the Tories and Greens suggested that in their manifestos. Labour and the Libs fell down because they preached to the electorate - "we know what's best for you so don't worry yourselves about it". The electorate either didn't believe them or got pissed off.
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You were obviously one of those who were duped by call me Dave.
Of course you can be pro EU and pro referendum as was Dave - pro EU because that's what he believes in and pro referendum because that was of political advantage to his party.
He is prepared to sacrifice the former for the latter.
 
Len Rum said:
You were obviously one of those who were duped by call me Dave.
Of course you can be pro EU and pro referendum as was Dave - pro EU because that's what he believes in and pro referendum because that was of political advantage to his party.
He is prepared to sacrifice the former for the latter.
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I didn't vote Tory.
 
It's debatable as to who has changed the rules. We joined a TRADE club and the next thing yer know we've got European foreign minister, European MPs, European parliament, open borders, bailouts for deadbeats, and we find that the train timetable is first class all the way for gravy trains.
 
Starting to accept we are going to leave and probably that we need to. It will definitely be worse for the country economically but currently the reality of staying is boiling to intolerable. It's not just us that need renegotiating but every other country and none of that will be allowed to happen whilst democracy is being sucked out of decision making. Countries like Germany just hold too much power when it comes to the big decisions along with the unelected clowns in Brussels. Why are we negotiating with the likes of Merkel, surely we should be negotiating at the table with every single EU member equal?

I don't mind bailing out other countries or handing more money out to help migrants or anything like that which has been painted negatively today. I think ultimately the human element should be preserved even if you aren't in the EU. My problem at the moment is that the European elite are not representing anyone but themselves. Until that system collapses and reforms we just cannot be a part of a union in which we have no say in. The whole system urgently needs reform that better fits the global climate it is in.
 
inbetween said:
Starting to accept we are going to leave and probably that we need to. It will definitely be worse for the country economically but currently the reality of staying is boiling to intolerable. It's not just us that need renegotiating but every other country and none of that will be allowed to happen whilst democracy is being sucked out of decision making. Countries like Germany just hold too much power when it comes to the big decisions along with the unelected clowns in Brussels. Why are we negotiating with the likes of Merkel, surely we should be negotiating at the table with every single EU member equal?

I don't mind bailing out other countries or handing more money out to help migrants or anything like that which has been painted negatively today. I think ultimately the human element should be preserved even if you aren't in the EU. My problem at the moment is that the European elite are not representing anyone but themselves. Until that system collapses and reforms we just cannot be a part of a union in which we have no say in. The whole system urgently needs reform that better fits the global climate it is in.
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If the vote is no what are the plans in place?

We have no manufacturing industry. A Tory government taking lessons from China on how to fuck its workers into poverty. I can't see it ending well.
 
I reckon the deal is irellevant the UK has to decide will it deal with the real problems or blame Europe and carry on down the same path, create new ones and then have to face up to them when they are bigger and harder in a few years.
 
mat said:
If the vote is no what are the plans in place?

We have no manufacturing industry. A Tory government taking lessons from China on how to fuck its workers into poverty. I can't see it ending well.
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I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the first trade deal with China gets negotiated and the Chinese chuckle away at Britain thinking it deserves a good deal

Before bending the country over and screwing it even harder and deeper than they did Europe. By the time 150 negotiations have been done with the commonwealth seeking revenge, the US not caring and Europe looking after Europe the whole of the midlands will be one large hole and the east and west coast a set of stained curtains . Putin will probably be nice as pie though and buy dinner first as he try's to put cracks in Western Europe and NATO. No doubt he is trying to funnel tens of millions to Nigel as we speak
 
EalingBlue2 said:
I'd love to be a fly on the wall when the first trade deal with China gets negotiated and the Chinese chuckle away at Britain thinking it deserves a good deal

Before bending the country over and screwing it even harder and deeper than they did Europe. By the time 150 negotiations have been done with the commonwealth seeking revenge, the US not caring and Europe looking after Europe the whole of the midlands will be one large hole and the east and west coast a set of stained curtains . Putin will probably be nice as pie though and buy dinner first as he try's to put cracks in Western Europe and NATO. No doubt he is trying to funnel tens of millions to Nigel as we speak
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That really is nonsense particularly suggestion Farage/UKIP have some unholy alliance with Putin. After all UKIP have pledged to look after the armed forces not to render them incapable of being fit for purpose like the Tories have done and Labour would also...policies that are much welcomed by Vlad.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
That is just utter tripe, no point commenting on just how wrong that is - but couldn't help it
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It is not utter tripe. EU membership binds you to European Court of Human Rights rulings, even though the ECHR is technically not an organ of the EU. However it has a consistent record of backing rapists, child killers and terrorists.
 
I don't think this subject is on a great deal of peoples radar at the moment. It's certainly not a topic I've heard raised in debate or casual conversation. I'm not sure many give a fuck tbh.
The whole thing seems a bit fragmented at the moment.
 
Gaylord du Bois said:
I don't think this subject is on a great deal of peoples radar at the moment. It's certainly not a topic I've heard raised in debate or casual conversation. I'm not sure many give a fuck tbh.
The whole thing seems a bit fragmented at the moment.
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Wait until a referendum date is agreed then the media will go into full on fear mode. Unlike a general election this campaign will have little balance. I hope people look at the facts and vote accordingly. More than likely they'll do what the sun tells them to.
 
mat said:
Wait until a referendum date is agreed then the media will go into full on fear mode. Unlike a general election this campaign will have little balance. I hope people look at the facts and vote accordingly. More than likely they'll do what the sun tells them to.
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I think you're right.
 
The negativity of the whole thing depresses me - the "deal" struck by Cameron is only a suggestion as yet - it has to be put to and agreed upon by the other member states yet already the Out campaign have typically personalised the argument into a bash Cameron campaign - something they will continue to do but they never ever are able to say what Brexit looks like.

My own concern is that it looks pretty much like its described by Ealing Blue 2 - bleak. There appears to me little understanding or a deliberate attempt to avoid discussions on how international trade works between various blocs.

The idea we can trot off and trade with the world at will is just fanciful - it will take years and years of trade negotiations and in the meantime parts of the UK economy will die.
 
bluethrunthru said:
The negativity of the whole thing depresses me - the "deal" struck by Cameron is only a suggestion as yet - it has to be put to and agreed upon by the other member states yet already the Out campaign have typically personalised the argument into a bash Cameron campaign - something they will continue to do but they never ever are able to say what Brexit looks like.

My own concern is that it looks pretty much like its described by Ealing Blue 2 - bleak. There appears to me little understanding or a deliberate attempt to avoid discussions on how international trade works between various blocs.

The idea we can trot off and trade with the world at will is just fanciful - it will take years and years of trade negotiations and in the meantime parts of the UK economy will die.
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The fifth biggest economy in the world will just be allowed to have parts of it "die"?

That's more fanciful than the reality you're suggesting. There's far too much money at stake by many people across the world who have invested in British businesses to just see it crumble into nothing. There will be desperation, of course, but from those interested and involved parties who will want to retain their earnings, not lose them due to something as petty or simple as a 'trade negotiation", which is even stipulated under EU law that a leaving member must be given a new trade agreement upon leaving, so it's not like they won't be prepared for it, especially if opinion polls appear to swing in favour of an exit coming up to the day of the referendum.

All this talk of "the economy will suffer!" "Security will suffer!" "Jobs will suffer!"; it's scaremongering, the same scaremongering that those on the In side accuse the Leave side of doing. The current facts about British economy on an exit or staying in are that Leave say "It'll be better if we leave!", In say "It'll be worse if we leave!", whereas most economists say "Meh....most likely no change whatsoever."
 
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