EU referendum deal (title edited)

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Except "Continued free trade" is not free at all, it costs billions a year to be a member, that is an added cost to all goods bought and sold.

And we would be paying as much, if not more to access the trading block if we exit.

Its a nonsense to even try and suggest that we need to be a part of any trade group, the demand for our goods will not go away, in fact without having to pay the EU kickback they will be cheaper to produce.

if we're not part of a trading group we will get absolutely destroyed when trying to import goods in the same way small corner shops get hammered by Tesco's.


"Free movement to work or travel" translates into no control over our own borders, why on earth do we need to import labour when we have mass unemployment other than to undermine pay and working conditions ?, an just who ends up paying both in monetary terms an long waiting lists for the increased needs in education,housing, social needs of these un- required "Workers" ( Funny how there appears to be a lot of these not working).

That migration goes both ways, there are a very large amount of people from the UK working in Europe. And what happens to the migrants here and our migrants over there is a big question mark that needs to be answered, as for increased needs in education, hiring an immigrant is basically getting 1 free worker that we didn't need to pay to educate!. yeah there are family considerations to think about but again, its not a one way street.


Having a seat at the European table ?, now your having a laugh, besides the simple math that tells you one voice among many counts for very little, the fact that we have never changed anything proves it.

We have a seat and have at least some influence, we can and have vetoed actions in the past. if we leave we wont have any say at all.

All that can ever happen within the EU is that we get shafted, there stated aim is a single state with monetary union, thats where its going, so the only question is do you want to go with it ?

If you class what we have now is us being shafted by the EU, imagine leaving, being shafter by the EU anyways and then being shafted by every other country we want to trade with.
 
Grunge.... To your first point above.

Will we be charging the likes of Mercedes, VW, nPower and all the other European corporations and Businesses similar penalties for trading with us?

Like I posted earlier, 3m jobs in the UK are dependent upon the EU trading with us, 5 million EU jobs depend upon them trading with the U.K. Trading, which I hasten to add, will undoubtedly continue.

To the rest of your post. It seems you think we as a nation are incompetent and incapable of doing global trade without having the EU holding our hand.... really?
 
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Grunge.... To your first point above.

Will we be charging the likes of Mercedes, VW, nPower and all the other European corporations and Businesses similar penalties for trading with us?

Like I posted earlier, 3m jobs in the UK are dependent upon the EU trading with us, 5 million EU jobs depend upon them trading with the U.K. Trading, which I hasten to add, will undoubtedly continue.

To the rest of your post. It seems you think we as a nation are incompetent and incapable of doing global trade without having the EU holding our hand.... really?
I'd love to be at the meeting when Merkel informs the CEOs of Mercedes, VW and BMW that all their exports to Britain will be subject to large tariffs, because politicians were a bit miffed that the British people had voted to leave the EU. The idea that there would be some sort of trade war which would plunge an already struggling Eurozone into outright recession is scaremongering by desperate inners.
 
Hey, Vinny, BBC news is reporting that the Belgians are telling folk that this is the last chance for the UK. Good for the Belgians that we didn't adopt the same stance when the Chairmans decided to effect the Schlieffen Plan. Yer soon find out who yer friends are when their interest is marginally brushed by a feather or two!
 
I'd love to be at the meeting when Merkel informs the CEOs of Mercedes, VW and BMW that all their exports to Britain will be subject to large tariffs, because politicians were a bit miffed that the British people had voted to leave the EU. The idea that there would be some sort of trade war which would plunge an already struggling Eurozone into outright recession is scaremongering by desperate inners.
Correct.
 
I'd love to be at the meeting when Merkel informs the CEOs of Mercedes, VW and BMW that all their exports to Britain will be subject to large tariffs, because politicians were a bit miffed that the British people had voted to leave the EU. The idea that there would be some sort of trade war which would plunge an already struggling Eurozone into outright recession is scaremongering by desperate inners.

If there is gonna be a trade war, which I think is highly unlikely as I don't recall a trade war before 1974 between those outside the Common Market as it was then and the rest of the world, I wish those who suggest it would provide an ounce of explanation as to how, where, when, and under what circumstances it would develop. In the absence of such, I'm led to believe it is nothing but scaremongering.
 
I'd love to be at the meeting when Merkel informs the CEOs of Mercedes, VW and BMW that all their exports to Britain will be subject to large tariffs, because politicians were a bit miffed that the British people had voted to leave the EU. The idea that there would be some sort of trade war which would plunge an already struggling Eurozone into outright recession is scaremongering by desperate inners.

Business investment depends on profits not politics. Which inners have seemed to have forgotten.
 
To the rest of your post. It seems you think we as a nation are incompetent and incapable of doing global trade without having the EU holding our hand.... really?

Its nothing to do with the EU holding hands, its everything to do with us having to negotiate all the trade negotiations again and every country out there will be in it to have the best deal for them, not us. we will have a very poor hand compared to being in a massive trading block like the EU. and I dont think we as a nation are incompetent, but I do think most of our politicians are and would also do everything they could to line there own pockets over the national interest.

The only way we will ever know is to have it happen,

the biggest question would be how quickly could we arrange those trade deals and how much they would cost us.
 
Its nothing to do with the EU holding hands, its everything to do with us having to negotiate all the trade negotiations again and every country out there will be in it to have the best deal for them, not us. we will have a very poor hand compared to being in a massive trading block like the EU. and I dont think we as a nation are incompetent, but I do think most of our politicians are and would also do everything they could to line there own pockets over the national interest.

The only way we will ever know is to have it happen,

the biggest question would be how quickly could we arrange those trade deals and how much they would cost us.

Trade deals can benefit us as well and given we're net importers of the majority of physical goods, I'd say we have a fairly strong hand. You compared the UK to a corner shop earlier - only the US, China, Japan and Germany have larger economies.

I'm sure some arrangement could be held temporarily, i.e. we keep all of the trade deals that the EU had with external countries until we get round to organising a new deal for the UK. I'd certainly say that's more likely than all UK trading grinding to a halt.
 
Its nothing to do with the EU holding hands, its everything to do with us having to negotiate all the trade negotiations again and every country out there will be in it to have the best deal for them, not us. we will have a very poor hand compared to being in a massive trading block like the EU. and I dont think we as a nation are incompetent, but I do think most of our politicians are and would also do everything they could to line there own pockets over the national interest.

The only way we will ever know is to have it happen,

the biggest question would be how quickly could we arrange those trade deals and how much they would cost us.

The EU is a massive entity, probably too big and it just doesn't work, we all know the old adage that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and never before has there been a better example. There are too many small ailing economies that need support and I don't believe the larger nations are big enough or strong enough to deliver that support, or at least to deliver support that would be acceptable to all parties.

If we could shake off the shackles that the EU impose upon us, the same shackles and red tape that we are the most compliant nation to, we would be much stronger. The EU needs us more than we need them, ask yourself, why are the bigger nations doing all they can to keep us in whilst the smaller economies don't appear to be as committed or prepared to concede?

I cannot argue with your point that I have underlined above, I would however ask you to consider if yo believe the incompetence and ineptitude doesn't exist in a much bigger way in the EU. The bureaucracy and red tape generation certainly does!
 
I normally have very forthright views on political matters, but in the case of whether or not we should stay in the EU, I am genuinely undecided. It strikes me it's a question of which option would be the least bad and either way, pain may ensue.

On the one hand, I agree with much of what BigJoe above says. The EU is too big, with factions that are too diverse - incompatible in fact - all being corralled into a whole that just doesn't fit together. The enlargement of the EU to its current size, including the current 28 member states was imho a really stupid idea that's led directly to many of the problems we now see. The gross incompatibilites between the member economies has led to the issues we've seen in Greece for example, and is at the root cause of the immigration crisis we see here in the UK. And yes, I did say crisis. But as if that is not bad enough, the EU is hell bent on progressively further union, with an undoubted end-goal of a federal European super-state. I feel it's an inexorable path leading to somewhere we don't want to be.

On the other hand, unfettered access to the single market brings great benefits and as THE english speaking nation in the EU, we are uniquely attractive to investors from APAC and elsewhere. Korean and Japanese execs may well speak English, but they sure as hell won't speak French or German. Combined with our more flexible labour market (you can sack people in the UK in a way that is just not possible in for example France or Germany) and English as our first language, it makes perfect sense for Nissan, Honda, Toyota etc when looking where in Europe to invest, to base large facilities here. If we were to leave the EU, all that would at risk. Jobs will inevitably be lost if we leave the EU.

Nevertheless, probably - and I am genuinely undecided - I think we should leave. The thing that makes me lean in that direction more than anything else, is not the immigration issue or the progressive loss of sovereignty however. It's the fact that I think Europe is fundamentally more socialist than the UK is. I believe the path to true prosperity and great public services for all is through wealth creation: doing everything you can to eliminate red tape, to encourage entrepreneurialism and to stimulate growth. A highly taxed, welfare-burdened economy does the exact opposite and ultimately declines. It is no coincidence that the other major economic trading blocks around the world are growing, whereas Europe is not. Europe is too inward looking, too internally focussed, worrying too much about issues internal to the EU and not paying enough attention to its real competition which is India, China, Brazil, America. Even Africa.

Whilst brexit would undoubtedly be painful and have many drawbacks, I think it may be the best bet to allow the UK to become more free, more creative, more vibrant and exciting, and to once again excel in the world's markets and bring wealth to us all. My sense is that staying in the EU - with an ever increasing burden or bureaucracy, red tape and taxation, is like fighting with one arm tied behind your back.
 
Anyone undecided would surely have been swayed by June Sarpong's remarkable performance on QT last night.
She was so persuasive that even the most devout Europhile will be dashing to put their cross in the leave box. Assuming you also get to leave Sarpong somewhere in the heart of Europe.


I assume she got her OBE for services to glossy pouting and annoying cackling!
 
Anyone undecided would surely have been swayed by June Sarpong's remarkable performance on QT last night.
She was so persuasive that even the most devout Europhile will be dashing to put their cross in the leave box. Assuming you also get to leave Sarpong somewhere in the heart of Europe.


I assume she got her OBE for services to glossy pouting and annoying cackling!

She wasn't the brightest was she? Never heard or seen her before, me and the Mrs took a guess she was a CBeebies presenter but couldn't be arsed checking, part of the stay in campaign which is a tad worrying for those pro Europeans

She was pretty fit though
 
Anyone undecided would surely have been swayed by June Sarpong's remarkable performance on QT last night.
She was so persuasive that even the most devout Europhile will be dashing to put their cross in the leave box. Assuming you also get to leave Sarpong somewhere in the heart of Europe.


I assume she got her OBE for services to glossy pouting and annoying cackling!
She was (?) married to Blairite MP David Lammy. She may have been spouted stuff he's said to sound clever.
 
The pay, pensions and expenses of EU bureaucrats and MEPs leave me in no doubt at all.

Then there is the outright corruption - or 'bending the rules as it is sometimes called.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-europe-corruption-strasser-idUKBRE90D0TR20130114

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/guilty-ex-prime-minister-keeps-47000-pension-8126.html
Take a look at the pay, pensions, allowances , expenses fiddling, cover ups of kids fiddling, deals, multi jobs, corruption, etc of our own parliament and you could justify as many times that the UK parliament is not fit to rule. Perhaps a new form of government is needed!
 
In 2013 we paid in about 9.5 billion pounds more than we got out. 2015 was 10.5 billion. It's forecast to rise fairly substantially over the next few years.

Germany is the biggest net contributor, we are the 2nd. Holland and Sweden are also relatively big contributors considering their population size. France, Italy, Finland, Austria and Denmark all also pay more in than they get out.

We could do a lot for ourselves with that 10+ billion quid per year.
That is ridiculous
 

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