EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

I'm still undecided about which way to vote, but I tell you something.... every single argument I've heard from the 'In' campaign is actually a negative argument about what will happen should we leave.

It's well known that being negative (even if you're right) can turn people against your point of view (it's partly due to this that the Scotland vote was so much closer than people originally thought it would be) so I really do feel that the negative 'In' campaign is being counter-productive and could contribute to an 'Out' vote.

So, as an undecided voter, I've got a question for those who definitely want to remain in the EU...

Can I have some positives about what will happen should we vote to stay in the EU? If you can, I'd like specifics about what will improve for us.

If I see any negatives in the answer I'll just ignore it :-)

That doesn't seem like a very open minded question with respect, we have a situation where the question is remaining with the status quo or making a dramatic change. You proclude any negative aspect of that change and proclude any positive aspect of the status quo this eliminating all possible arguments.

If I live in village a and am thinking of moving to village b and you ask me to state the case for staying in village a, without being allowed to mention anything about village a other than what will improve or negative about village b, it doesn't leave much.

 

[Chippy_boy]

If it was so bad leaving and a disaster for world peace , interest rates, business, the polar ice caps, bill and Ben, imre varadi, the nhs, your holidays etc etc why the fuck are we being allowed to vote on it in the first place

Because there's the square root of fuck all chance of us actually leaving, and it shuts the Tory rebels up. It's the only way the PM got to be PM. And it was a handy threat to wield to the other 27 when trying to negotiate on various points.

Next

 

[EalingBlue2]

I

Oh mr chips it's all so black and white in the chips house. What do you want for tea son? Chips . Next.

Imagine explaining to a defector from North Korea democracy. So what we do in democracy is we vote every 5 years for our government and what they do is they give all the power to another unelected body who enact the majority of the laws that govern us. Even when we don't like them there is nothing we can do about it. Indeed even our own government moan regularly about the dictator from Europe. That sounds like just what I left......

If it was so bad leaving and a disaster for world peace , interest rates, business, the polar ice caps, bill and Ben, imre varadi, the nhs, your holidays etc etc why the fuck are we being allowed to vote on it in the first place

I think all the nonsense about dictators and dictatorships shows just how many people in the west really have had such easy cosseted lives and lives in very free countries that they can bandy around such terms without any real concept of what they mean.

To compare North Korea to the EU is an insult to your own intelligence let alone the rest of us,

 

[EalingBlue2]

Because there's the square root of fuck all chance of us actually leaving, and it shuts the Tory rebels up. It's the only way the PM got to be PM. And it was a handy threat to wield to the other 27 when trying to negotiate on various points.

Next

It is utterly symptomatic of the way people live in the 21st century, tomorrow doesn't exist, as long as the political and economic Ponzi scheme keeps going today we can worry about tomorrow later.

Cameron worried more about his leadership and the upcoming election than he did about the countries future, therefore in a typically cynical expedient politicians way he took a decision that made things easy today regardless of what it did tomorrow. The political equivalent of giving in to a screaming toddler to earn a bit of peace if you like.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Outers are like United fans or Christians you don't argue with them because you think you will change their mind, you do it because one day you know that they will know that you were always right.

You wanker! That is exactly the same smug complacency that allows Christians to 'know' they are 'right'. I usually find you make good points tbh, but you've shown how blinkered and arrogant you are there. I'm hoping youvare just wumming or taking the piss.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

I

I think all the nonsense about dictators and dictatorships shows just how many people in the west really have had such easy cosseted lives and lives in very free countries that they can bandy around such terms without any real concept of what they mean.

To compare North Korea to the EU is an insult to your own intelligence let alone the rest of us,

The point I am making is of the principle of democracy not the regime. Leaving or staying won't make any difference to people on a day to day basis . This country has fought wars and come through many more things than leaving the Euro. To suggest the world or business or the nhs or society is going to collapse is outrageous. Or in 2030 we will be 4030 worse off per household is utter nonsense. Please don't tell me you believe someone can predict the future so accurately on something so specific. If you do then sort your own intelligence out,

Stay or leave day to day things will go on as they are pretty much the country will be a success so it simply comes down to rule of law and sovereignty and those we elect being accountable to the electorate for the laws they bring in. That's it for me the rest I don't believe the fear campaign on each side to be honest.
We can still be pro Europe and mates with Europe just not be sucked into the political beurocracy that dilutes the above principle like other countries in the continent of Europe who live very happy lives.

 

[EalingBlue2]

You wanker! That is exactly the same smug complacency that allows Christians to 'know' they are 'right'. I usually find you make good points tbh, but you've shown how blinkered and arrogant you are there. I'm hoping youvare just wumming or taking the piss.

I was being a wanker plain and simple- honestly I don't expect for one second to change the mind of people who believe that a North Korean like EU is coming for us as millions of poor immigrants fill our hospitals and keep honest hard working Tommys from getting a job. If believing that God doesn't exist or that City are deeply and in every way superior to the Rags, or that Europe is not North Korea and the U.K is responsible for its own issues is in your eyes arrogant then fair play. I call it crystal clear certainty. Christians think they are right, United fans think they are right, outers think they are right..... That's the way it is.

It's not complacency it is confidence and I am extremely confident that in or out of the EU will make no difference at all if the real issues aren't tackled and I am confident that whatever the result now the UK will be split for decades and that split more than the result will cause deep harm to many people. As to who the harm is to, that will depend on the vote

 

[EalingBlue2]

You can't debate with these people Ealing. Their minds are made up and whatever logical argument you through at them just gets ignored. It's a complete waste of time, and to be honest whilst a bit interesting and entertaining for a while has now got more than a bit boring.

You're right about the North Korea comment. When the Outers are resorting to comparing the EU to North Korea, you know there isn't going to be a sensible debate.

Mate even though I suspect we are very different politically I think the UK has far more important things to deal with.

Namely fixing the structural deficit, quickly turning around state education and investing in the future, addressing the looming health funding crisis and dealing with a tax system that no longer does what it needs to do. That and addressing the causes of terrorism , the worst effects of poverty etc etc are where the focus should be... The obsession with the away by a rump minority has for 30 years taken politicians eyes off the ball, given a chance for governments to avoid and deflect and done a huge disservice to tens of millions of people.

If you don't have your health, you have a poor education , you have few opportunities, your c Putney is bankrupt or you are a victim of terrorism why should you give a monkeys what nationality the government who failed you are.

 

[Monkfish]

You wanker! That is exactly the same smug complacency that allows Christians to 'know' they are 'right'. I usually find you make good points tbh, but you've shown how blinkered and arrogant you are there. I'm hoping youvare just wumming or taking the piss.

Lucky for you this time you will be able to go through the rest of your life posting on here that 'if only we had listened to me and voted to leave...'

You will know you were right and nobody will ever be able to prove otherwise, win win

 

[Monkfish]

On another point is Boris a remain campaign plant?

 

[Chippy_boy]

The point I am making is of the principle of democracy not the regime. Leaving or staying won't make any difference to people on a day to day basis . This country has fought wars and come through many more things than leaving the Euro. To suggest the world or business or the nhs or society is going to collapse is outrageous. Or in 2030 we will be 4030 worse off per household is utter nonsense. Please don't tell me you believe someone can predict the future so accurately on something so specific. If you do then sort your own intelligence out,

Stay or leave day to day things will go on as they are pretty much the country will be a success so it simply comes down to rule of law and sovereignty and those we elect being accountable to the electorate for the laws they bring in. That's it for me the rest I don't believe the fear campaign on each side to be honest.
We can still be pro Europe and mates with Europe just not be sucked into the political beurocracy that dilutes the above principle like other countries in the continent of Europe who live very happy lives.

I don't get these comments about fear campaigns. There's nothing to be "afraid" of. But being better or worse off, is kind of important to most people, is it not? I've said this many many times, but several pages back now, so I'll repeat it in case you missed it...

In my view it's quite possible than in 10+ years time we might be better off if we left. We might not, by the way - we've demonstrated consistently for long enough that we can fuck things up all by ourselves without any help from Brussels. But we *might* be better off. The way that *could* happen is if we ditch a load of the anti-competitive social and beaurocratic nonsense that holds our country back. Essentially, we need to be more right wing, which of course may not please half the Outers. If we choose to stay as we are, or god forbit become more left wing, then chances are we'll never be better off than if we stay in.

But whatever our situation in 10+ years, there is no way on this planet earth that we would be anything other than worse off in the short term. The country would be in turmoil for years and businesses would hold back on investments, waiting to see the outcome. Everyone knows that if there's one thing business hates, it's uncertainty. You only have to look at the FTSE and the pound to see what uncertainty is doing to the economy right now. If we vote to leave, that uncertainty ratchets up several notches and we will slip back into recession. I don't think this is even debatable to be honest. Even the most rabid Outer would look like a complete idiot if trying to argue that we could negotiate all of the required trade agreements for goods and services in anything less than many years.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

That doesn't seem like a very open minded question with respect, we have a situation where the question is remaining with the status quo or making a dramatic change. You proclude any negative aspect of that change and proclude any positive aspect of the status quo this eliminating all possible arguments.

If I live in village a and am thinking of moving to village b and you ask me to state the case for staying in village a, without being allowed to mention anything about village a other than what will improve or negative about village b, it doesn't leave much.

I would think that we will not even get the benefit of the 'status quo'! Look how the Eu has changed from a trading block to the overwhelming, overweening and bureaucratic gravy train riddled with corruption and fraud it is now! Where will it be in twenty years time! Were you to have described to Ted Heath what the EU is now he would have laughed his ample arse off, back on, and back off again! The In campaign have as much idea of what staying in will bring as they have of what leaving would bring!

 

[Monkfish]

Essentially, we need to be more right wing, which of course may not please half the Outers.

The consequence of a leave vote would undoubtedly lead to a massive shift to the right, possibly even the end of the Labour party particularly when Scotland then leaves the union and Labour no longer becomes capable of winning any election

 

[Monkfish]

I would think that we will not even get the benefit of the 'status quo'! Look how the Eu has changed from a trading block to the overwhelming, overweening and bureaucratic gravy train riddled with corruption and fraud it is now! Where will it be in twenty years time! Were you to have described to Ted Heath what the EU is now he would have laughed his ample arse off, back on, and back off again! The In campaign have as much idea of what staying in will bring as they have of what leaving would bring!

Every political system in the world is full of fraud and a bureaucratic gravy train, just because Murdoch doesn't investigate stockport council doesn't make it any better, and if in 20 years we don't like what the eu has become can't we then leave our is this a last chance saloon?

 

[EalingBlue2]

The point I am making is of the principle of democracy not the regime. Leaving or staying won't make any difference to people on a day to day basis . This country has fought wars and come through many more things than leaving the Euro. To suggest the world or business or the nhs or society is going to collapse is outrageous. Or in 2030 we will be 4030 worse off per household is utter nonsense. Please don't tell me you believe someone can predict the future so accurately on something so specific. If you do then sort your own intelligence out,

Stay or leave day to day things will go on as they are pretty much the country will be a success so it simply comes down to rule of law and sovereignty and those we elect being accountable to the electorate for the laws they bring in. That's it for me the rest I don't believe the fear campaign on each side to be honest.
We can still be pro Europe and mates with Europe just not be sucked into the political beurocracy that dilutes the above principle like other countries in the continent of Europe who live very happy lives.

To be quite honest in real terms in or out I think people are going to be much worse off (that is unless a technological miracle comes). The U.K. Is driving fast toward the edge of a cliff, In or out is just whether you want to accelerate towards it or go over at the same speed.
I don't believe anyone can predict the future all they can do is model the most likely scenario if the future happened a million different ways.
I am afraid and this applies to the in outcome to, the future is a lot less rosy. Britain won't get the deals it wants , hell even the EU didn't.

The U.K. Has increasing inequality, has a structural deficit on top of a large debt and a huge looming pension deficit, public education and health are being eroded and there is no money their to pay for them, immigration has grown GDP, staffed hospitals, provided some productivity and people are turning against the tap that has sustained them. The tax system is failing, the U.K. And her friend the US's meddling in the Middle East is coming home to roost.

Just when hard decisions should be made, sacrifices made and the country should be coming together in a desperate attempt to pass the buck the country is dividing and focusing on what is an irrelevance.

 

[Helmet Cole]

I was being a wanker plain and simple- honestly I don't expect for one second to change the mind of people who believe that a North Korean like EU is coming for us as millions of poor immigrants fill our hospitals and keep honest hard working Tommys from getting a job. If believing that God doesn't exist or that City are deeply and in every way superior to the Rags, or that Europe is not North Korea and the U.K is responsible for its own issues is in your eyes arrogant then fair play. I call it crystal clear certainty. Christians think they are right, United fans think they are right, outers think they are right..... That's the way it is.

It's not complacency it is confidence and I am extremely confident that in or out of the EU will make no difference at all if the real issues aren't tackled and I am confident that whatever the result now the UK will be split for decades and that split more than the result will cause deep harm to many people. As to who the harm is to, that will depend on the vote

You left inners out of your list of people who think they are right, and jehovas witnesses for that matter. It also strikes me that you have a thing about immigrants/immigration. I'm an outer and honestly don't see them as a problem.

 

[EalingBlue2]

The consequence of a leave vote would undoubtedly lead to a massive shift to the right, possibly even the end of the Labour party particularly when Scotland then leaves the union and Labour no longer becomes capable of winning any election

which in turn will turn Northern England into a wetter greyer version of southern Italy

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

St

I don't get these comments about fear campaigns. There's nothing to be "afraid" of. But being better or worse off, is kind of important to most people, is it not? I've said this many many times, but several pages back now, so I'll repeat it in case you missed it...

In my view it's quite possible than in 10+ years time we might be better off if we left. We might not, by the way - we've demonstrated consistently for long enough that we can fuck things up all by ourselves without any help from Brussels. But we *might* be better off. The way that *could* happen is if we ditch a load of the anti-competitive social and beaurocratic nonsense that holds our country back. Essentially, we need to be more right wing, which of course may not please half the Outers. If we choose to stay as we are, or god forbit become more left wing, then chances are we'll never be better off than if we stay in.

But whatever our situation in 10+ years, there is no way on this planet earth that we would be anything other than worse off in the short term. The country would be in turmoil for years and businesses would hold back on investments, waiting to see the outcome. Everyone knows that if there's one thing business hates, it's uncertainty. You only have to look at the FTSE and the pound to see what uncertainty is doing to the economy right now. If we vote to leave, that uncertainty ratchets up several notches and we will slip back into recession. I don't think this is even debatable to be honest. Even the most rabid Outer would look like a complete idiot if trying to argue that we could negotiate all of the required trade agreements for goods and services in anything less than many years.

Please stop it. The country would not be in turmoil for years and years. Once out business would plan for this. They already are. It's an uncertain time for us all it always is. Staying in provides turmoil and uncertainty until things settle.

As for recession the uk is the fastest growing economy hence the strongest people in the Eu want to come and work here understandably. Please look at this from the other side of the telescope. What do you think happens to the countries of Greece Poland Romania long term if their most enterprising people doctors builders whatever keep coming here. What do you think happens to those countries. They get weaker and weaker. So you end up with a lopsided European Union where you have strong economies feeding off the best people in weaker countries. The gap then gets bigger and you end up with economic imbalance. Ask the Greeks!!!! That's why free movement of people does not work.

 

[EalingBlue2]

You left inners out of your list of people who think they are right, and jehovas witnesses for that matter. It also strikes me that you have a thing about immigrants/immigration. I'm an outer and honestly don't see them as a problem.

There are some outers on this thread who I think have strong rational cases based on sound reasoning. But unfortunately too much of the debate is about immigration , dictatorship and utter nonsense from the outers, but I shouldn't tar all with the same brush

 

[Helmet Cole]

The consequence of a leave vote would undoubtedly lead to a massive shift to the right, possibly even the end of the Labour party particularly when Scotland then leaves the union and Labour no longer becomes capable of winning any election

Its just as likely a remain vote would cause a lurch to the right as any economic strife or other issue that could by any stretch blamed on staying in would be manipulated by the RW agenda.