EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
Chippy_boy said:
Having started your post so well by saying "Of course both sides will lie because they will skew the facts for their own means, there are actually no concrete facts available because no-one can predict the future", you've then slipped into the very trap you warned about.

You have absolutely no way of knowing that no-one would lose their job, and worse, there's an extremely high likelihood that SOME people would lose their jobs. You can debate how many and how and whether new job opportunities would make up for it. But to suggest that irrespective of who you work for and what that company's outlook is, no-one would lose their job, is either naive in the extreme or disingenuous.
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But you have fallen into that exact same trap... There is no real evidence either that EU membership is linked to job security unless of course you are an EU national working here in which case who knows what will happen, probably nothing. Common sense tells me that job security is not linked to membership of a trading bloc, it is linked to trade and we will definitely continue to trade regardless of the referendum result. The demand for our services and vice versa is not going to change overnight simply because we decide not to be in the EU. Trade is about demand. Airbus for example are a great example of a European multi-national, they have billions invested in this country supported by countless amounts of highly skilled people, they will not just pack up and throw this all away overnight and risk the company future simply because a percentage of their workforce does not share the same passport.

The only obvious thing that could affect trade is the adaptation needed so that we can trade with the EU but I can't see why it would be a problem, we are the world's 5th biggest economy and we just will not simply be blocked off overnight or some countries will see a lot more job losses than we will. I would hazard a bet that the real risk to jobs is potentially far greater in EU countries who supply the UK rather than the other way round. Look at the Spanish market, they work well with British businesses and in an economy where a quarter is unemployed, they simply cannot afford to not trade with us on similar terms. Existing relationships will continue to exist regardless because it is far more costly to do it alone or else why aren't they doing so anyway?

Obama has spouted this week about how we should remain, can you imagine if the US was in a trading bloc where their consitution was rendered useless.... Of course Obama is looking after the US and the TTIP will ensure it's status of free trade. Of course the US wants the UK to remain because it means the US can trade under the terms of the EU of which it holds a greater bargaining chip.

For me this isn't about jobs, trade or anything because no matter what happens life will go on, we just might all have to buy a new passport. This for me is a constitutional question about whether we want to govern ourselves and hold the powers that be accountable for every single law they make. If we vote to stay in the EU, we are saying for some percentage of those laws, we aren't bothered about accountability and we aren't bothered about democracy. If a properly reformed EU was on the voting paper again I would be whole-heartedly voting to stay in but unfortunately it isn't that simple.

Everyone has to make their decision and that's all you can do but otherwise nothing is really going to change and life will go on.
 
President Obama seems to be getting more delusional as his Grand Tour continues. I offer these words from his speech today as support for that contention:

“If a unified, peaceful, liberal, pluralistic, free-market Europe begins to doubt itself, begins to question the progress that’s been made over the last several decades, then we can’t expect the progress that is just now taking hold in many places around the world will continue.”

unified: bollocks…Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Poland and of course the UK are at odds with Brussels-am-Berlin on every dimension of where it’s going: austerity, the euro, federalism and global trade deals.

peaceful: bollocks…civil strife in Greece, the Ukraine and the Balkans all took place on the EU’s watch. The direct result of EC cultural control has been the rise of extreme politics in almost every Member State. EU inaction had produced the greatest and most violent migrant crisis in European history.

liberal: bollocks…censorious legislation in Spain, France and Greece is at an alltime high. The.................

pluralistic: bollocks…


https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/obamas-grand-tour-how-to-make-threats-and-influence-cowards/
 
blueonblue said:
Jesus but there are some "Special little snowflakes" posting on here !

This is a country that built an empire, fought wars against overwhelming odds and won, and has influenced the world for generations, and all these SLS can do is shit themselves at the though that we wont have the EU to tell us what to do.

As a previous poster has repeated, forget the propaganda massaged numbers and remember the basics.

You are voting to regain a free country that makes its own decisions, controls its own borders and trades with who it wants on its own terms, you are voting to get the f*ck from under the ever descending jackboot of the EU, an organisation that is a byword for corruption and underhand dealings, not just for you but the generations to come.
Click to expand...

I trust you were jacking off into a union Jack handkerchief whilst dressed as Churchill and perusing the Tory manifesto from 1981 for cleavage shots of Thatcher whilst typing that?

Be a shame for your SLC to miss out on the fun
 
blueonblue said:
Jesus but there are some "Special little snowflakes" posting on here !

This is a country that built an empire, fought wars against overwhelming odds and won, and has influenced the world for generations, and all these SLS can do is shit themselves at the though that we wont have the EU to tell us what to do.

As a previous poster has repeated, forget the propaganda massaged numbers and remember the basics.

You are voting to regain a free country that makes its own decisions, controls its own borders and trades with who it wants on its own terms, you are voting to get the f*ck from under the ever descending jackboot of the EU, an organisation that is a byword for corruption and underhand dealings, not just for you but the generations to come.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I've been saying........thought the introduction of the jackboot was inspired!
Vote Leave........Carpe Diem!
 
Moriati said:
President Obama seems to be getting more delusional as his Grand Tour continues. I offer these words from his speech today as support for that contention:

“If a unified, peaceful, liberal, pluralistic, free-market Europe begins to doubt itself, begins to question the progress that’s been made over the last several decades, then we can’t expect the progress that is just now taking hold in many places around the world will continue.”

unified: bollocks…Portugal, Spain, Italy, Greece, Hungary, Poland and of course the UK are at odds with Brussels-am-Berlin on every dimension of where it’s going: austerity, the euro, federalism and global trade deals.

peaceful: bollocks…civil strife in Greece, the Ukraine and the Balkans all took place on the EU’s watch. The direct result of EC cultural control has been the rise of extreme politics in almost every Member State. EU inaction had produced the greatest and most violent migrant crisis in European history.

liberal: bollocks…censorious legislation in Spain, France and Greece is at an alltime high. The.................

pluralistic: bollocks…


https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/04/25/obamas-grand-tour-how-to-make-threats-and-influence-cowards/
Click to expand...
Which way would your old adversary Sherlock vote Moriati?
 
blueonblue said:
Jesus but there are some "Special little snowflakes" posting on here !

This is a country that built an empire, fought wars against overwhelming odds and won, and has influenced the world for generations, and all these SLS can do is shit themselves at the though that we wont have the EU to tell us what to do.

As a previous poster has repeated, forget the propaganda massaged numbers and remember the basics.

You are voting to regain a free country that makes its own decisions, controls its own borders and trades with who it wants on its own terms, you are voting to get the f*ck from under the ever descending jackboot of the EU, an organisation that is a byword for corruption and underhand dealings, not just for you but the generations to come.
Click to expand...
The trouble is you sound like a Greek or Italian, "we invented science and democracy" " look what the Romans did".

We need to live in the future and work on building a new Britain and one that can thrive in the future. Looking back to the Victorian ages (hate to tell you the empire is gone) or Churchill (our army today wouldn't be winning world wars) etc is nonsense - you sound like the schoolboy footballer now sitting in the pub where he drinks every day telling people about he hatrick he scored in a final in 1951

Let's pretend the last century never happened, let's pretend we still rule the waves and let's pretend reality has never happened. If we close our eyes and pop on the last night of the proms maybe we can all do it?
 
Yes we need to look to the future and do away with silly old fashioned ideas like representative democracy.

Legislation by committee of appointees - how very modern.
 
inbetween said:
But you have fallen into that exact same trap... There is no real evidence either that EU membership is linked to job security unless of course you are an EU national working here in which case who knows what will happen, probably nothing. Common sense tells me that job security is not linked to membership of a trading bloc, it is linked to trade and we will definitely continue to trade regardless of the referendum result. The demand for our services and vice versa is not going to change overnight simply because we decide not to be in the EU. Trade is about demand. Airbus for example are a great example of a European multi-national, they have billions invested in this country supported by countless amounts of highly skilled people, they will not just pack up and throw this all away overnight and risk the company future simply because a percentage of their workforce does not share the same passport.

The only obvious thing that could affect trade is the adaptation needed so that we can trade with the EU but I can't see why it would be a problem, we are the world's 5th biggest economy and we just will not simply be blocked off overnight or some countries will see a lot more job losses than we will. I would hazard a bet that the real risk to jobs is potentially far greater in EU countries who supply the UK rather than the other way round. Look at the Spanish market, they work well with British businesses and in an economy where a quarter is unemployed, they simply cannot afford to not trade with us on similar terms. Existing relationships will continue to exist regardless because it is far more costly to do it alone or else why aren't they doing so anyway?

Obama has spouted this week about how we should remain, can you imagine if the US was in a trading bloc where their consitution was rendered useless.... Of course Obama is looking after the US and the TTIP will ensure it's status of free trade. Of course the US wants the UK to remain because it means the US can trade under the terms of the EU of which it holds a greater bargaining chip.

For me this isn't about jobs, trade or anything because no matter what happens life will go on, we just might all have to buy a new passport. This for me is a constitutional question about whether we want to govern ourselves and hold the powers that be accountable for every single law they make. If we vote to stay in the EU, we are saying for some percentage of those laws, we aren't bothered about accountability and we aren't bothered about democracy. If a properly reformed EU was on the voting paper again I would be whole-heartedly voting to stay in but unfortunately it isn't that simple.

Everyone has to make their decision and that's all you can do but otherwise nothing is really going to change and life will go on.
Click to expand...

I suggest you actually read what I wrote. You cannot have read it or you would not have posted this.
 
Last edited:
The Doctor said:
Which way would your old adversary Sherlock vote Moriati?
Click to expand...
Out ?
  • Ever since the inception of the European Economic Community, British politicians across the entire political spectrum have been perceptive enough to realize that Britain will lose its sovereignty and turn into a vassal of the France-Germany axis.

  • This month, in March, an official audit reported that EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100 billion ($144 billion) of EU spending. The Brussels accounts have not been given the all-clear for 19 years in a row.
    There is a joke going around the internet it how the European Union works (or doesn't):
Pythagoras's theorem - 24 words.
Lord's Prayer - 66 words.
Archimedes's Principle - 67 words.
10 Commandments - 179 words.
Gettysburg address - 286 words.
U.S. Declaration of Independence - 1,300 words.
U.S. Constitution with all 27 Amendments - 7,818 words.

EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words.

The audit, published on March 17, 2016, found that £109 billion ($157 billion) out of a total of £117 billion spent by the EU in 2013 alone was "affected by material error" -- that is, disappeared into various people's pockets.

Unfortunately, most voters in the British referendum glean their information from the sound bites of politicians on television. This circumstance leaves the public open to manipulation, uninformed, and ignorant of the facts.
 
Moriati said:
Out ?
  • Ever since the inception of the European Economic Community, British politicians across the entire political spectrum have been perceptive enough to realize that Britain will lose its sovereignty and turn into a vassal of the France-Germany axis.

  • This month, in March, an official audit reported that EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100 billion ($144 billion) of EU spending. The Brussels accounts have not been given the all-clear for 19 years in a row.
    There is a joke going around the internet it how the European Union works (or doesn't):
Pythagoras's theorem - 24 words.
Lord's Prayer - 66 words.
Archimedes's Principle - 67 words.
10 Commandments - 179 words.
Gettysburg address - 286 words.
U.S. Declaration of Independence - 1,300 words.
U.S. Constitution with all 27 Amendments - 7,818 words.

EU regulations on the sale of cabbage - 26,911 words.

The audit, published on March 17, 2016, found that £109 billion ($157 billion) out of a total of £117 billion spent by the EU in 2013 alone was "affected by material error" -- that is, disappeared into various people's pockets.

Unfortunately, most voters in the British referendum glean their information from the sound bites of politicians on television. This circumstance leaves the public open to manipulation, uninformed, and ignorant of the facts.
Click to expand...
You're a very bitter individual.
 
hgblue said:
Bitter, but right.
Click to expand...

just sneaked on and though I would 'fact check' our friend Moriaties cabbage claim, unsurprisingly its totally made up

here is a potted history of the cabbage claim, seems to have been doing the rounds since before the EU was actually formed...
http://www.snopes.com/language/document/cabbage.asp

I assume Mozzas other facts are as accurate?

So we are left with just 'bitter', or should I say bitter and 'wrong'?

Moriati said:
This circumstance leaves the public open to manipulation, uninformed, and ignorant of the facts.
Click to expand...

indeedy
 
The problem is when you have a bitter and twisted view, it completely clouds your judgement and makes for irrational, emotionally-driven and ultimately wrong decisions.

You need to be able to look at both sides of an argument and weigh up each.
 
Moriati said:
This month, in March, an official audit reported that EU auditors refuse to sign off more than £100 billion ($144 billion) of EU spending. The Brussels accounts have not been given the all-clear for 19 years in a row.
Click to expand...

Wrong
The independent European Court of Auditors have signed off the European Commission accounts every year for the entire 2007-2013 accounting period

In your defence Mozza I do hold Rupert responsible, he has indeed manipulated you and made you ignorant of the facts
 
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