EU referendum

[Monkfish]

Stop being a smart arse, you know that I didn't mean vote out of Europe as a continent.

I wish you would be a smart arse, this is an important vote and you choose which way to vote based on mistaken identity on some crappy cctv?

 

[Monkfish]

Sounds like you have some kind of religious chip on your shoulder pal. I said that a terrorist, who was with 2 other terrorists, who blew themselves up has been released back into society. Who cares if they were Muslim, they could have been Martian for all I know / care.

He wasn't a terrorist, just a Muslim. Due to this they released him back into society, that a problem?

 

[True_Blue69]

I wish you would be a smart arse, this is an important vote and you choose which way to vote based on mistaken identity on some crappy cctv?

To be honest, I am completely 50/50 and to find a reasoned point of view on this is all but impossible, everyone has their own agenda.

This is the exact sort of thing that the EU rule makers have caused, fair enough there is a need for Human Rights etc. but surely there is a time where special dispensation can be granted to hold a suspect for more than the regulated period.

 

[Monkfish]

To be honest, I am completely 50/50 and to find a reasoned point of view on this is all but impossible, everyone has their own agenda.

This is the exact sort of thing that the EU rule makers have caused, fair enough there is a need for Human Rights etc. but surely there is a time where special dispensation can be granted to hold a suspect for more than the regulated period.

They can hold him in custody but as it was nothing to do with him they let him go, it's how we try to roll in Europe and one of the many reasons people from Muslim countries want to live in Europe, don't commit a crime and you don't get put in prison for it.

 

[blueish swede]

From John Ward - The Slog -
I must say, I think we of the School Leaver tendency in the Brussels Academy 6th Form have missed a trick thus far on the real trade deficit from which the EU suffers: the War and Peace import/export paradigm.
It’s actually a very simple calculation to make, by asking four questions:

1. How many wars in Europe have we stopped?
2. How much war have we imported?
3. How much war have we started?
4. How much war have we exported?

The answer to Q 1 is easy: none. After 1949 (when the USSR got its own bomb) war with the Soviets was a non-starter because of mutually assured destruction (MAD), and non-nuclear invasion of Western Europe by the USSR was deterred by the US nuclear presence. Following the Soviet collapse, several wars followed in quick succession as a result: the Yugoslav splintering started the Bosnian War (1992 – 1995). The same cause triggered the Kosovo War (1998-1999), starting a third wave of unrest in Kosovo during 2004 and only ending with an uneasy peace in 2013. NATO and US diplomacy did 95+% of the peace-making: the EU failed to influence any outcomes or stop the conflicts.

Q 2

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2016/03/27/reason-no-142-for-brexit-the-eu-is-a-war-magnet/

You can't say that the EU hasn't stopped any wars. Greece, Spain, Portugal could all have descended in to civil war after the fall of their respective dictatorships if they weren't offered a path to EU membership.

The same is true of Czechoslovakia after the fall of Communism.

Can anyone say there would definitely have been wars, no, but the presiding wisdom at the time was that it was a very real possibility in each case. The EU acted to prevent that outcome and the result was peaceful transitions in each country and a peaceful split for the Czechs and Slovaks.

 

[EalingBlue2]

You can't say that the EU hasn't stopped any wars. Greece, Spain, Portugal could all have descended in to civil war after the fall of their respective dictatorships if they weren't offered a path to EU membership.

The same is true of Czechoslovakia after the fall of Communism.

Can anyone say there would definitely have been wars, no, but the presiding wisdom at the time was that it was a very real possibility in each case. The EU acted to prevent that outcome and the result was peaceful transitions in each country and a peaceful split for the Czechs and Slovaks.

It is a dreadful article the errors in supposition shocking - wouldn't even make it to Facebook

 

[EalingBlue2]

They can hold him in custody but as it was nothing to do with him they let him go, it's how we try to roll in Europe and one of the many reasons people from Muslim countries want to live in Europe, don't commit a crime and you don't get put in prison for it.

I would say either of you making blanket defence or criticisms of the release could be wrong, so I'd be careful being too bombastic either way.

That said it is a fundamental of our society that you can't be held with zero evidence and in a case like this if there is no actual evidence and nothing substantiated then it is a norm of the west that he would be released. Is this mistaken identity, a dodgy tip off that was made up - who knows? I would have thought with technology today if it was the person on CCTV it would be very easy to prove and have enough evidence to hold him?

The acts we have from Europe and indeed that have been enshrined in the sovereign law of most of the west is that you can't just hold people indefinitely with no evidence. That is a value we should fight for.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Interestingly, the poll results above which have been fairly consistent have suddenly lurched a % or so towards exit. Maybe too small a sample to be meaningful, or possibly a result of releasing the bloke with the muslamic ray gun in Belgium?

 

[grunge]

YouGov interactive map of th current state of polling.

https://yougov.co.uk/yougov-8545/

Manchester happens to be one of the most eurosceptic areas of the country.

Edit: fat finger, small phone error. It's Warrington not Manc.

 

[cibaman]

I'm still undecided but increasingly concerned about the idea of the Brexiters taking over the government of the country. I'm convinced that the first 5-10 years post Brexit would be bad news, don't believe that it would be a seamingless transition, with one bound being free from the EU yoke but still enjoying all of the trading benefits. However over the longer term, 20 years or so, we might be better off out of a completely dysfunctional structure.

The problem for me is that, if the Brexiters win, the first 5-10 years could be so bad that the UK doesn't recover. I have no love for Cameron, Osborne and co, but the idea of Johnson and the other Brexiters taking control of the Tory party seems to me to be quite scary. Particularly at a time when we do not have an effective opposition. If they do win all of their focus will be on the continuing battle with the EU over the terms of the exit. Which seems increasingly to becoming fixated on the issue of immigration. Would they have the time to run the economy NHS, education etc? I certainly don't think they would have the competence.