EU referendum

[Helmet Cole]

Yes me. I am a europhile. I think freedom of labour and trade to be great things. Staying in also means my business doesn't suffer.

But I value sovereignty and don't fancy a federal Europe if at all possible.

I think that's how a lot of outers feel tbh, and the in campaign is misjudging the outers by so heavily playing the economic card. Even if we were slightly financially worse off out (no one knows) many of us could live with that because we are more bothered about the implications of the EU overall.
Sadly the undecided folk will probably be swayed by scare stories regarding the amount of cash in their pockets, so its probably not a bad tactic and will lead to an in vote. That's democracy folks.

 

[hgblue]

Are you a politician lol?

A very comprehensive answer that goes into detail but does not give me a clue.

Are you saying you are a Europhile that is voting out? Because that is how I would describe myself. I love Europe and the experience of going there but cannot stand the thought of giving up sovereignty and being ruled from Brussels.

Cheers in any case.

To be fair the vast majority of Leavers are pro-European. My primary concern is the best interests of my country but I'm also well aware that we can provide a beacon of hope for others to follow.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

To be fair the vast majority of Leavers are pro-European. My primary concern is the best interests of my country but I'm also well aware that we can provide a beacon of hope for others to follow.

Indeed I love Europe but you have to be out to get the Europe that is right for us and others. Vote in and they will just ignore us more as we had our chance.

 

[smudgedj]

good piece in the Guardian today on that very matter http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/10/greece-austerity-grexit-drachma?CMP=twt_gu

Extract below:-

In his yellow Toyota, Giorgos Balabanis, a taxi driver for the past 15 years, puts it another way. His car, he insists, is a university of life. “All sorts” get in and out. “And what I am hearing every day is that until we leave the euro, until we return to the drachma, until we have a currency that is not so strong, things will never be right,” he says. “Remember me because it’s going to happen. There will be an explosion and Grexit and the drachma will come back.”

Who would have guessed an undervalued currency for the Germans would prove be a disaster for every other fucker.

 

[Balti]

Indeed I love Europe but you have to be out to get the Europe that is right for us and others. Vote in and they will just ignore us more as we had our chance.

Vote Leave and others would follow. The ultimate end result would likely be an EU that many more of us could support i.e. a non federal Europe with no agenda of ever closer political and fiscal union.

 

[PrestwichPeteMcfc]

A lot of people seem to be ok with Britain's place in the EU as it stands (whilst noting it's many imperfections) and think that currently the benefits of membership outweigh the costs. But many of these people are voting out because they think that at some point in the future we'll become more closely integrated/ move towards a federal Europe - something that the vast majority don't want.

Would it not make sense for these people to vote to remain, under the presumption that if we did move towards integration there'd likely be a backlash and another referendum?

Anti EU feeling is so strong that I can't envisage a scenario where it'd be politically viable for any government to move towards 'closer union' without a referendum; it'd be political suicide.

 

[EalingBlue2]

In fairness, whoever wins there will be carnage, Remainers or Brexiters.

This country is very badly damaged through this referendum and it will take years to fix it... Either way.

I wholehartedly agree , I think unfortunately a big chunk of the damage is done and I don't think the issue will go away and the result either way will be used as an excuse by government , companies and individuals for many things

In terms of your other question I started 75:25 I am now 90:10 as i consistently have found the exit arguments to be fanciful and optimistic and that the real vote for a big chunk of people is more about a desire to return to a mythical ( to be fair 150 years ago it was real) greatness and independence which for Britain will never exist again. I also think Britain is pinning its out strategy on financial services which will on my view be ripped apart by technology and globalisation in a way that will make Airbnb, uber etc look tiny, that the assumptions on negotiations are wildly optimistic and that as trade and tax are truly globalising and blocs are forming to give power in negotiation it would be folly to try and push back the tide of history.

I will add I think the in and The out vote has been led (from what I see here) by deeply unimpressive people with deeply unimpressive arguments (politicians not BM)

 

[grunge]

This exposes the lie that the EU is stable, I doubt even the most ardent remainian would care to make the case that Greece will be a member very much longer (But hey, if your confident enough please go right ahead ), so then its down to what the Germans will do when faced with the bill because they are going to be the biggest loser.
Something tells me the German voters will not be long in kicking off big time.

The issue with Greece is they are part of the Euro and there was intentionally no clause added for exiting as the intention is that once your in your in.

Greece trying to exit could provide some very entertaining legal battles.

 

[YPhrunts]

If you didn't sign the petition to get this debate then no matter. The nine million propaganda leaflet paid for with tax payers money has led to some wry comments on parliament TV.
If we vote to leave the EU it has been claimed by Cameron that it might lead to war and armageddon. If that is the case asks Fox why was it left off the leaflet? PMSL.
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/93a979e7-4c8a-4d3f-89b1-529df4b4cad4

 

[YPhrunts]

In fairness, whoever wins there will be carnage, Remainers or Brexiters.

This country is very badly damaged through this referendum and it will take years to fix it... Either way.

This bitterness happened during and after the last referendum but it soon evaporated. The difference this time around is that we have the internet so that we can all talk to each other and support each other's views for or against. We are aware in a way that we never were in the last referendum. What will be the likely outcome? After we vote to remain there will be recriminations. The nine million pound leaflet paid for by tax payer's money is just one example of corruption that didn't happen during the previous referendum. Back then it was just the newspapers and TV doing the spinning. Afterwards we all shrugged our shoulders and went back to sleep again. This time we will shrug our shoulders but sleep won't come easy because we do not rely solely on newspapers and TV for acquiescence now. The net has made the difference and what will probably come out of it is not political 'damage' but a different political direction. More people are now aware in a way that they never were before how our democracy can be manipulated to suit by a self interested civil service, a lying prime minister and a propaganda machine in the form of the BBC. The net counteracts that now through information and support.

So the 'damage' as you describe it will be due to the fact that the genie is now out of the bottle and cannot be stuffed back inside. It will be a turning point in my view not a piece of political cannibalism. But the BBC has really fucked up big time and that will come under closer scrutiny in the aftermath.