EU referendum

[FanchesterCity]

Can I vote for EU law makers yet?

No?

Then I'm still voting leave.

You can't vote for the UK law makers either.
You don't vote for the House of Lords, and you don't vote for the courts.
You vote for SOME law makers who make some laws (statute) but not common law.

On top of that, some of the directives from the EU have been good ones. Whilst some of our own laws have been very poor ones. It's not all good on one side and bad on the other.

 

[FanchesterCity]

No we couldn't stop talking crap

We can hold a national referendum whenever we like. There is no constitutional barrier to it. Regardless of the result, parliament is no obliged to go along with the results of a referendum.
Of course we wouldn't actually hold another so quickly, but we COULD.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Can I vote for EU law makers yet?

No?

Then I'm still voting leave.

Sounds like Farage....poor economy, uncertain short-mid term future but its ok...we are Britain!!!..and after all of it the Government will still have to hand over some control back to the EU and still have to agree freedom of movement if we want to be apart of the single market....and as over 40% of our exports are to EU....we need the single market and free movement of goods....so we go round the houses, agree a worse deal, just to end up back where we started....hhmmmmm?.....and as been mentioned, we dont have a vote over UK law makers either!...so you only have the same power either way!;)

 

[hilts]

You can't vote for the UK law makers either.
You don't vote for the House of Lords, and you don't vote for the courts.
You vote for SOME law makers who make some laws (statute) but not common law.

On top of that, some of the directives from the EU have been good ones. Whilst some of our own laws have been very poor ones. It's not all good on one side and bad on the other.

You're very misguided fella, self determination seems to have passed you by, you're rational seems to be we have cunts in Europe and cunts in the uk so let's just carry on with little fuss, it's a very British trait

 

[hilts]

Sounds like Farage....poor economy, uncertain short-mid term future but its ok...we are Britain!!!..and after all of it the Government will still have to hand over some control back to the EU and still have to agree freedom of movement if we want to be apart of the single market....and as over 40% of our exports are to EU....we need the single market and free movement of goods....so we go round the houses, agree a worse deal, just to end up back where we started....hhmmmmm?

It has been several pages since someone pursued the freedom of movement lie

 

[hilts]

We can hold a national referendum whenever we like. There is no constitutional barrier to it. Regardless of the result, parliament is no obliged to go along with the results of a referendum.
Of course we wouldn't actually hold another so quickly, but we COULD.

Tory party policy stay in Europe
Labour Party policy stay in Europe

These are the only two parties capable of winning a general election, the tories in desperation put a referendum n their manifesto, you will not get this opportunity again any time soon

 

[FanchesterCity]

You're very misguided fella, self determination seems to have passed you by, you're rational seems to be we have cunts in Europe and cunts in the uk so let's just carry on with little fuss, it's a very British trait

Not at all. It's a matter of not being blindly arrogant in believing that our nation's fate is entirely in our own hands (it NEVER has been) - so I don't buy misleading headlines that proclaim leaving the EU allows us to determine our own fate - it doesn't. We can influence it, not determine it.

I do believe there are morons in Europe and morons at home. In which case, why would the morons at home be any more capable? I believe we are better served with stronger EU allies than we are by standing alone - not just for economic reasons, but for security reasons too.

There's nothing misguided in that.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Tory party policy stay in Europe
Labour Party policy stay in Europe

These are the only two parties capable of winning a general election, the tories in desperation put a referendum n their manifesto, you will not get this opportunity again any time soon

You struggle to understand the difference between 'will' and 'can'.
If our circumstances take a particularly bad turn where leaving the EU is necessary, we will leave it. Just like we will go to war if we determine we have to. We are not locked into the EU like some prisoner. We enter into a firm commitment that's very messy to get out of gracefully, but we can leave it as and when we choose. I can break a contract when I choose. As I said, there are repercussions in doing do, but it's possible.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Both the Labour Party and Conservative Party would change their policies if the desire to leave or remain out of the EU was overwhelming. It would be political suicide for either party to do otherwise.
Both parties can currently afford to be in favour because they believe they hold a slender majority in favour. Even a slender minority would be ok for them.
No political party with a hope of governing would choose to adopt a stance that the overwhelming majority was dead against - it would become an unelectable party.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

It has been several pages since someone pursued the freedom of movement lie

Please explain why is it a lie? We need free movement of goods and Freedom of movement works hand in hand with this...Genuine question....what EU country has free movement of Goods, without Freedom of Movement? What UK are trying to do has never been done before, so to say its a lie, is just wrong becuase you dont know what we will be able to agree to.....even countries not in the EU...like Switzerland are heading for the courts because the EU blocking any chance to agree one without the other.....and EU are now waiting to see what happens with the UK before they will agree to any immigration caps for Switzerland....



http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog...ement-except-this-time-the-stakes-are-higher/

Swiss told to vote again on free movement – except this time the stakes are higher
Despite the Swiss public voting for restricting EU free movement, the EU has flat-out refused to enter into negotiations on this topic. Open Europe's Pawel Swidlicki looks at the implications not only for the wider EU-Swiss relationship but also for the UK.


No agreement until after they know what the UK are doing..

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-immigration-croatia-idUSKCN0W60P7

 

[hilts]

Not at all. It's a matter of not being blindly arrogant in believing that our nation's fate is entirely in our own hands (it NEVER has been) - so I don't buy misleading headlines that proclaim leaving the EU allows us to determine our own fate - it doesn't. We can influence it, not determine it.

I do believe there are morons in Europe and morons at home. In which case, why would the morons at home be any more capable? I believe we are better served with stronger EU allies than we are by standing alone - not just for economic reasons, but for security reasons too.

There's nothing misguided in that.

You do realise if we leave the eu they don't actually stop talking to us? We can pick up the phone have meetings pool resources have agreements. We have had decades of Tory,labour and Europe and they have failed us. We have the opportunity to fuck one lot off and then we can start on the others. It might be a dream but it has to start somewhere, if you empower people it can start a chain of events or you can carry on and take it up the arse. We will remain in the eu because people are apathetic. And when they complain about the state we are in in the the years to come they can get to fuck.

You had your chance to get rid of a group of self serving piss takers with their snouts in the trough and you went for the easy option. Bring a little anarchy into your life. I have always thought go into Europe full steam or walk away. Nothing good came of playing it safe.

 

[flyer]

Tory party policy stay in Europe
Labour Party policy stay in Europe

These are the only two parties capable of winning a general election, the tories in desperation put a referendum n their manifesto, you will not get this opportunity again any time soon

Which is where I was coming from. With the Euro being basically fucked, I'm not sure the threat of a recession if we vote Out is that much of a worry to me

 

[hilts]

Please explain why is it a lie? We need free movement of goods and Freedom of movement works hand in hand with this...Genuine question....what EU country has free movement of Goods, without Freedom of Movement? What UK are trying to do has never been done before, so to say its a lie, is just wrong becuase you dont know what we will be able to agree to.....even countries not in the EU...like Switzerland are heading for the courts because the EU blocking any chance to agree one without the other.....and EU are now waiting to see what happens with the UK before they will agree to any immigration caps for Switzerland....



http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog...ement-except-this-time-the-stakes-are-higher/

Swiss told to vote again on free movement – except this time the stakes are higher
Despite the Swiss public voting for restricting EU free movement, the EU has flat-out refused to enter into negotiations on this topic. Open Europe's Pawel Swidlicki looks at the implications not only for the wider EU-Swiss relationship but also for the UK.


No agreement until after they know what the UK are doing..

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-eu-immigration-croatia-idUSKCN0W60P7

The reason is simple in the unlikely event that we vote out no party could sign an agreement for trade that involves free movement of people, it would be suicidal, this has been discussed but the lie continues, it wouldn't happen

 

[hilts]

Which is where I was coming from. With the Euro being basically fucked, I'm not sure the threat of a recession if we vote Out is that much of a worry to me

The European experiment has failed and the faceless who came up with this shit are just delaying the inevitable, we have the chance to kill it quickly for the benefit of all the people who are sinking with it

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

The reason is simple in the unlikely event that we vote out no party could sign an agreement for trade that involves free movement of people, it would be suicidal, this has been discussed but the lie continues, it wouldn't happen

So its a lie because in your opinion it would be suicidal? that makes no sense.... If EU force it like they are doing with countries like Switzerland and its clear our economy needs the single market, we wouldnt have much choice if we want a better deal....your kidding yourself if you think we can have our cake and eat it...You really believe we say to the EU, you can stick it! Saying no would be suicidal....and risking near 45% of our export business.....

EDIT: Just wanted to say I not being funny....genuine interest in why you think the way you do about the subject....

 

[FanchesterCity]

You do realise if we leave the eu they don't actually stop talking to us? We can pick up the phone have meetings pool resources have agreements. We have had decades of Tory,labour and Europe and they have failed us. We have the opportunity to fuck one lot off and then we can start on the others. It might be a dream but it has to start somewhere, if you empower people it can start a chain of events or you can carry on and take it up the arse. We will remain in the eu because people are apathetic. And when they complain about the state we are in in the the years to come they can get to fuck.

You had your chance to get rid of a group of self serving piss takers with their snouts in the trough and you went for the easy option. Bring a little anarchy into your life. I have always thought go into Europe full steam or walk away. Nothing good came of playing it safe.

Choosing to stay in is a proactive choice too. For every argument that staying in is an easy option, there's a counter argument that leaving is the same. Plenty good comes from playing it safe plenty bad comes from overt risk tasking.

 

[FanchesterCity]

The reason is simple in the unlikely event that we vote out no party could sign an agreement for trade that involves free movement of people, it would be suicidal, this has been discussed but the lie continues, it wouldn't happen

I agree that after voting to leave, reaching an agreement to allow free movement of EU citizens would be suicidal for any single political party - the only possible way it would work is with cross party agreement, and even then the public would almost certainly feel shafted (as imigration is obviously a key motive for the exit).
However, to expect the EU to agree to the same trading conditions as before our exit, and without the migration clause would be suicide for the EU - as we would be getting all the benefits 'for free'.

So the logical conclusion is how we get an agreement with the EU where the EU can claim they are charging us more for not being a member and the UK can still claim it's an overall saving, thanks to not having to pay contributions and no free migration. That will mean we WILL get less favourable terms, but a government can still sell it as an overall gain for us.

Then we'd have to set about demonstrating that gain in tangible ways - which will take some doing. The British public won't sit on it's hands for 10 years waiting for improvements. The danger is that any 'pain' we have to endure on the way to longer term improvement might not be suffered by the population, in which case, we have civil unrest and demonstrations about the almighty lie of leaving the EU. I am not saying it WOULD be a lie - merely that the public will quickly change opinion if we are hit hard during the early years of leaving. That is partly because the brexit politicians haven't prepared the public for any pains... and partly because any such pains would look an awful lot like the doom predictions were coming true.

The brexit side need to be preparing the public for the likelihood of some pain before the gains, and they aren't doing that.

 

[ROCKET80]

It’s been covered that although unelected officials in the EU create laws (most of which we’ve benefited from) the same happens in the UK.

The issues with the NHS, Housing, Education, Transport and Infrastructure are not the making of the EU but of the UK Government.

Farage claims the UK is being bullied by nations within the EU but the notion that the US, China, Japan and commonwealth countries are going to be easier to deal with is absurd.

When it boils down to it the reason a majority of people wish to leave the EU is immigration.

Pretty much everything points to the fact thatImmigration benefits the UK. It has only a developed into major issue as during a huge economic downturn and time of austerity, Farage in particular (a British Trump dressed as Ted Glen) preyed on the fears, insecurities and prejudices of the majority of the working class and rural England, selling them the idea that Britain’s woes are all down to Johnny Foreigner coming over to the UK and we need to make Britain great again (with no coherent plan about how to go about it other than leave the EU when the majority of evidence points to the contrary).

With only half of migrants to the UK being from the EU would it not be simpler and placate everyone to stay in the EU with all the benefits and look at revising qualification for entrance from non EU countries?

 

[BigJoe#1]

Very Polished?....That pharmaceutical bloke blew him out of the water.....and he just had no reply....expect "we are British"....The guy might have been an expert in his "area" but Farage did not have a clue or a counter argument....and in "my opinion" you could have had someone from manufacturing or any other sector and he would have given the same reply....because its clear the outs have no plan...We've already heard today that £65mil billion in investment has left UK because of the concerns over our economy if we leave...but, but, but...we British!!!..who are we kidding!!.....markets and investor movements are the first sign of trouble.....by the time it hits the man on the street its too late....Cameron was asked for a plan so he told us what his plan is, whether we agree with it or not...he has a plan if we "stay" and has agreed a better deal for the UK for immigration controls, to stop people claiming benefits etc etc........Cameron's plan might not be perfect but atleast he has one..but Farage?....doesnt matter...we are British!!......

I watched the question time tonight and if completely honest I expected Cameron to do alot worse than what he did but I wasnt concerned about that because this vote isnt about the leader of the conservative party..Farage didnt seem to have any grasp on the economy, on how it works and the effects leaving might have....he just kept playing the "We are British" card when he didnt know the answer.......

Hmmm and allCameron could do was continuously bang on about our strong economy. So strong it won't survive without the EU.

 

[peter.evans]

It’s been covered that although unelected officials in the EU create laws (most of which we’ve benefited from) the same happens in the UK.

The issues with the NHS, Housing, Education, Transport and Infrastructure are not the making of the EU but of the UK Government.

Farage claims the UK is being bullied by nations within the EU but the notion that the US, China, Japan and commonwealth countries are going to be easier to deal with is absurd.

When it boils down to it the reason a majority of people wish to leave the EU is immigration.

Pretty much everything points to the fact thatImmigration benefits the UK. It has only a developed into major issue as during a huge economic downturn and time of austerity, Farage in particular (a British Trump dressed as Ted Glen) preyed on the fears, insecurities and prejudices of the majority of the working class and rural England, selling them the idea that Britain’s woes are all down to Johnny Foreigner coming over to the UK and we need to make Britain great again (with no coherent plan about how to go about it other than leave the EU when the majority of evidence points to the contrary).

With only half of migrants to the UK being from the EU would it not be simpler and placate everyone to stay in the EU with all the benefits and look at revising qualification for entrance from non EU countries?

Excellent post and sums up what Farage and his facist cronies are all about !