EU referendum

[BigJoe#1]

All true Brits need to tie the Union Jack to their manhood and play Jerusalem whilst reading Chickies post and as we reach the'defend the border' bit watch as the flag is hoisted high and proud. I'm welling up, I'm out.

It sums up the Brexiteers
Every single one of them

Pathetic with their "we are having our way of life changed"and "our influence is no bigger than any other single EU state"and that was just on the news tonight.

Infantile bullshit.

True Brits with their Korean car, Saudi petroleum, French energy , Indian food, Japanese laptop, American digital platform, Czech beer, working for a German company spending German money and sitting around somewhat ironically moaning about foreigners and international business.

And you call Brexiteers infantile? Seems to me you will stop at nothing to shout down anyone that has the temerity to oppose your opinions. Never mind, you will probably win the vote simply by the scare and mis-leading tactics that Cameron is pushing out. He is worrying people by saying things as truth when in reality all they are, are opinions and forecasts from an institution that has been spectacularly wrong over the last six years.

But please DLBH stop throwing your toys out of the pram because you and Monkfish are classically demonstrating the very behaviour you mock, it looks classless!

 

[EalingBlue2]

And you call Brexiteers infantile? Seems to me you will stop at nothing to shout down anyone that has the temerity to oppose your opinions. Never mind, you will probably win the vote simply by the scare and mis-leading tactics that Cameron is pushing out. He is worrying people by saying things as truth when in reality all they are, are opinions and forecasts from an institution that has been spectacularly wrong over the last six years.

But please DLBH stop throwing your toys out of the pram because you and Monkfish are classically demonstrating the very behaviour you mock, it looks classless!

Fair enough but it is very hard to read posts blaming the EU for virtually everything that is happening in the world especially when in many of the cases our sovereign British government has carried far more responsibility than the EU. There are posts in this thread blaming the EU for every wrong in the world and it is at best naive at worst dishonest.
then questions just don't get answered, I have tried to answer your questions even when about me and yet you haven't attempted to answer the questions I have asked back. So respect and discourse is to be fair a two way thing and if brexiters are going to blame the EU for Britains economic decline (that started well over 5 decades before the EU I was even an idea, or blame all the economic ills of Europe on the EU rather than the GFC and blame refugee crisis in Germany rather than those who started the wars in Iraq and Syria . Then it becomes hard to have any sort of rational discussion

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Good post but I'd take issue with a few points. The English people are virtually entirely made up of people who invaded across the English Channel, be they furnace, German , Scandinavian etc. Apart from my Celtic brothers it would s a country of European invaders and their descendants.

Nearly every industrialized country on earth is a rich amalgam of immigrants and natural born inhabitants. However, I would suggest that in mature democracies, while immigration can be a valuable asset, it can also be a dangerous and destabilizing force when allowed to grow unfettered, or unnaturally. I would further suggest that in recent years immigration has been a vastly different proposition than in the past. Indeed, in my lifetime, the profile of immigration has changed dramatically.

Secondly inequality is better (should I say less bad) than it is in Australia, the US, China, India and in fact nearly all of the world so I am not sure why that is an EU problem.

Inequality may not necessarily be an EU problem. In fact, I'm not sure inequality is a problem at all. There has always been inequality and there always will be. The old parable of giving three children the same gift of money today will produce vastly different outcomes today is universal. That said, the levels of inequality are becoming more exaggerated and may themselves become destabilizing to a strong democracy. In America, we see this through the prism of Citizens United, which allows unlimited money to feed the political process.

As for the propping up most of that is debt that won't go when the Euro goes, frankly I am more concerned about the 19 trillion dollar national debt and the propping up of the US economy, the near 2 trillion debt of the UK and the huge unfounded amounts that don't even appear in those calculations.

National debt is not the issue, but the funneling of sovereign wealth OUT of the country to feed a machine that doesn't necessarily represent either the best use of that money or the reason it is given. If the EU is so liberal that it can never allow failure, then failure will be rewarded and accountability will be nonexistent.

We should be focusing on these issues rather than creating a decade of uneven sash negotiation and distraction and a recession and banking crisis we don't need to have yet . Then when we actually have the ship righted we can discuss the Relationship with The EU.

That sounds like the proverbial rainy day. The above issues are ever present, and a banking crisis of the magnitude of 2008 should never be allowed to happen again (and I believe Dodd-Frank AIDS is greatly in the States), but I think the EU is heading for a day of reckoning regardless of Britan in the EU or not. Zero interest rates, slow and distinctly regional economic growth, and an anemic global business environment all point to pain ahead and I don't believe Brexit has a damned thing to do with it. So, to suggest we need to wait for a reversion to the mean also suggests that such a reversion creates a better time and future for a potential British exit. I don't think it does. I think the horror stories are just that...stories designed to frighten.

At the moment we are sandbagging the house to avoid floods whilst the house is on fire

To be fair, I believe this issue will be dead and buried for a good long while if it doesn't pass now. And, to your point, as a country, I think we need to walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't see any serious countries following a single track focus, just as I don't see the Brexit vote as the sole issue on anyone's agenda. Britain will continue to operate regardless of the vote and I have certainly never suggested that either the house is on fire OR that the deluge is approaching. As is always the case, there is only so much oxygen to fan the flames of the headline issue du jour, but I don't believe this vote is either a panacea or a distractor from the dearth of success.

Thank you for the respectful discussion.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

You probably missed this news on Fox but the UK is currently have and have not counties, and if we were to leave the eu you think Tyneside is going to benefit? If there are job losses they ain't in Berkshire chicky

I see you have pegged me as a know nothing Republican Faux News moron. That is a serious swing and a miss. As for the have and have not counties, methinks that may have started with the aindustrial a revolution and continued from there. Will that ever change? Probably not. Now, tell me again what you point was, chicky....

 

[ChicagoBlue]

All true Brits need to tie the Union Jack to their manhood and play Jerusalem whilst reading Chickies post and as we reach the'defend the border' bit watch as the flag is hoisted high and proud. I'm welling up, I'm out.

You appear to have taken my comments as somewhat xenophobic and racist. They are neither. That said, border security is, and always has been, a national imperative. After all, haven't we always needed a passport to travel abroad, too? Or, would you suggest open borders, complete freedom of movement, and why even stop with the EU?

 

[cibaman]

And you call Brexiteers infantile? Seems to me you will stop at nothing to shout down anyone that has the temerity to oppose your opinions. Never mind, you will probably win the vote simply by the scare and mis-leading tactics that Cameron is pushing out. He is worrying people by saying things as truth when in reality all they are, are opinions and forecasts from an institution that has been spectacularly wrong over the last six years.

But please DLBH stop throwing your toys out of the pram because you and Monkfish are classically demonstrating the very behaviour you mock, it looks classless!

The Treasury forecasts certainly seem to be way over the top. But they probably had their intended effect. All I heard yesterday was a succession of economists and commentators arguing that the reality would be "not as bad". Its the absence of positive forecasts that will eventually kill the Leave campaign.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Nearly every industrialized country on earth is a rich amalgam of immigrants and natural born inhabitants. However, I would suggest that in mature democracies, while immigration can be a valuable asset, it can also be a dangerous and destabilizing force when allowed to grow unfettered, or unnaturally. I would further suggest that in recent years immigration has been a vastly different proposition than in the past. Indeed, in my lifetime, the profile of immigration has changed dramatically.



Inequality may not necessarily be an EU problem. In fact, I'm not sure inequality is a problem at all. There has always been inequality and there always will be. The old parable of giving three children the same gift of money today will produce vastly different outcomes today is universal. That said, the levels of inequality are becoming more exaggerated and may themselves become destabilizing to a strong democracy. In America, we see this through the prism of Citizens United, which allows unlimited money to feed the political process.



National debt is not the issue, but the funneling of sovereign wealth OUT of the country to feed a machine that doesn't necessarily represent either the best use of that money or the reason it is given. If the EU is so liberal that it can never allow failure, then failure will be rewarded and accountability will be nonexistent.



That sounds like the proverbial rainy day. The above issues are ever present, and a banking crisis of the magnitude of 2008 should never be allowed to happen again (and I believe Dodd-Frank AIDS is greatly in the States), but I think the EU is heading for a day of reckoning regardless of Britan in the EU or not. Zero interest rates, slow and distinctly regional economic growth, and an anemic global business environment all point to pain ahead and I don't believe Brexit has a damned thing to do with it. So, to suggest we need to wait for a reversion to the mean also suggests that such a reversion creates a better time and future for a potential British exit. I don't think it does. I think the horror stories are just that...stories designed to frighten.



To be fair, I believe this issue will be dead and buried for a good long while if it doesn't pass now. And, to your point, as a country, I think we need to walk and chew gum at the same time. I don't see any serious countries following a single track focus, just as I don't see the Brexit vote as the sole issue on anyone's agenda. Britain will continue to operate regardless of the vote and I have certainly never suggested that either the house is on fire OR that the deluge is approaching. As is always the case, there is only so much oxygen to fan the flames of the headline issue du jour, but I don't believe this vote is either a panacea or a distractor from the dearth of success.

Thank you for the respectful discussion.

I beg to differ on national debt, our economies are propped up by a Ponzi scheme, debt grows every day and we kick problems financially and environmentally down the road. We rely on immigration across the world to plug the gap by driving productivity and keeping the retired population from becoming too big a portion of the population. You seem to ignore the fact we have a completely unsustainable economic model, we cannot afford to pay for our elderly and if it is not addressed very soon , discusses honestly and the population buying in it will be a catastrophe .

So what do governments do when they have to turn off he very tap that keeps the Ponzi scheme going, they distract and they look to blame somekne. To be fair in the UK it's easy we do what we have done for hundreds of years blame the French and the Germans.

Brexit is sucking all the energy out of policy, out of debate , out of business planning at the moment and we are using Brexit to hide the real discussions. I will admit Brexit is a better distraction than wars in Syria or stopping Transexuals going into women's toilets but all the same it is a distraction.

What worries me is that Brexiters seem to believe all will be alright and everything will be solved by an EU exit, at best things will be the same at worst we could face short or medium term economic problems the economy can't afford.

I am not sure what the future of the EU is and I can see issues in it, but I am damn sure it is about issue number 10 that the UK faces and in ignoring the first 9 we are showing a recklessness that could result in a decade looking in the wrong direction and some very major problems. These problems will not be as a result of Brexit necessarily but will be because we ignored hem to focus on Brexit.

 

[bobmcfc]

Well the PM has really stepped it up this week

Your shopping bill will rise
Cost of your holidays will rise
Petrol will rise
The value of your house will fall
We will go into recession

I think loads will now be scared into voting to stay.

 

[Monkfish]

You appear to have taken my comments as somewhat xenophobic and racist. They are neither. That said, border security is, and always has been, a national imperative. After all, haven't we always needed a passport to travel abroad, too? Or, would you suggest open borders, complete freedom of movement, and why even stop with the EU?

Not at all, just very blue rinse and land of hope and glory

 

[Monkfish]

And you call Brexiteers infantile? Seems to me you will stop at nothing to shout down anyone that has the temerity to oppose your opinions. Never mind, you will probably win the vote simply by the scare and mis-leading tactics that Cameron is pushing out. He is worrying people by saying things as truth when in reality all they are, are opinions and forecasts from an institution that has been spectacularly wrong over the last six years.

But please DLBH stop throwing your toys out of the pram because you and Monkfish are classically demonstrating the very behaviour you mock, it looks classless!

I don't think brexiteers are infantile,a lot are racist xenophobic scum though and deserves all it gets, try 'the darkies will blow us up' and 'the darkies will rape our girl's' a page or so back, it's like 1950 again. You think I should treat that with respect? That's Ealings job, the most respectful poster in this thread and your still sulking at him so what's the point in playing nice?