EU referendum

[FanchesterCity]

Good one. Made me laugh especially the maestro bit.

Those mental scars never go! haha

 

[FanchesterCity]

Glad you are participating in the strategy of made up shit we haven't tired of it yet

It was tongue in cheek!

 

[hilts]

It was tongue in cheek!

I forgive you then

 

[Metal Biker]

What scare stories? You mean like:

World war 3
The northern Irish peace treaty may be at risk
The birds and bees may leave the uk ( my favourite)
Each family in the uk will be 4080 worse off a year in 2030
It will take 10 years to agree a trade deal with the USA
House prices will fall
Interest rates will rise
The economy will take years to recover if we leave ( if ever)
New one today from Osborne , the northern powerhouse will be at risk.
Nissan will shut its U.K. Plants and relocate them to Europe.

So what are these scare stories from brexit then......

New one today from Donald Tusk; Brexit means the collapse of Western Civilisation.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

Totally agree. Nobody knows whether being in or out is better.

I was responding to the accusation that brexiters have used more scare stories to control people's feelings. It has felt like a new scare story from the remain camp every day, birds and bees, Northern Ireland peace treaty? How much worse off my family will be in 16 years? Come on.

You can present the positives of the eu without trying to scare the shit out of everyone . They should be bloody obvious shouldn't they as we are already in the eu in and have 40 years of good examples to pick from. Don't we?

Trying to win the argument by merely presenting the positives of what we already have is never going to work though because they can't get away with the same level of bullshitting. They can't say if we stay in the EU it will be absolutely brilliant because we are in the EU and we know it isn't absolutely brilliant. Boris on the other hand can get away with the claim it will be brilliant if we vote out because while it is utter fiction (and the lying self serving **** well knows it) the evidence isn't surrounding us that it won't be brilliant. You shouldn't be comparing the number of remain scare stories to the number of exit scare stories IMO, it is more fair to compare the number of remain scare stories to the number of exit positive claims that are not properly evidenced.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Trying to win the argument by merely presenting the positives of what we already have is never going to work though because they can't get away with the same level of bullshitting. They can't say if we stay in the EU it will be absolutely brilliant because we are in the EU and we know it isn't absolutely brilliant. Boris on the other hand can get away with the claim it will be brilliant if we vote out because while it is utter fiction (and the lying self serving **** well knows it) the evidence isn't surrounding us that it won't be brilliant. You shouldn't be comparing the number of remain scare stories to the number of exit scare stories IMO, it is more fair to compare the number of remain scare stories to the number of exit positive claims that are not properly evidenced.

It's a good job I wasn't then. I never brought the topic up! I was merely responding to an accusation.

I would say though that the remainions are using to the same level (more) of bullshitting about what might , could, may or will happen in the future if we vote leave and that is backfiring on them sadly.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

It's a good job I wasn't then. I never brought the topic up! I was merely responding to an accusation.

I would say though that the remainions are using to the same level (more) of bullshitting about what might , could, may or will happen in the future if we vote leave and that is backfiring on them sadly.

I agree it is backfiring, just as it did in the Scottish election, they clearly haven't learnt from that but then I'm not sure what else they could have done to compete with Boris's bullshit other than point out potential negatives of the change. Although in reality I do wonder whether they'd have been better off literally just not campaigning at all and trusting the public to see through Boris and Farage. Essentially a campaign like this (and the Scottish one) is inevitably going to end up being one of "what will it be like if we vote change" on both sides. As we don't know what it will be like then both sides are effectively bullshitting, one side in a negative tone, the other side with a positive tone. I just think it is a much easier campaign to fight for the exit camp, same as it was for the exit the UK camp in the Scottish election.

 

[mcfc1632]

Bananas was true, it was also repealed but it did happen did it not? At no little cost I hasten to add. Not a scare story though.
Hitler, no scare story here. I agree it was foolish.
The amount we send to the EU is a badly constructed arguement which has damaged the Leave campaign more than it's helped them.
Turkey joining the EU. I accept we may veto this however, the fact that Turkey has negotiated for their people to travel visa free in the Shengen zone is, to the common man a major step toward joining, to many it's as good as being in.
I'm not sure where your comment on housing had come from other than Gideon saying prices will crash. If he's telling the truth then I guess more people will be able to afford houses.
Again, no one has said ALL European men are rapists have they. Please feel free to link to the source.

No real scare stories here are there?

Actually, (I think) that the Hitler comment can be seen as a criticism that should be placed at the door of the remain campaign.

The context of what was being explained was about the previous failed attempts to achieve a united Europe under a single governance body/country - it then got leapt on and all that was reported was what Remain wanted to be reported - i.e. about Hitler

 

[BigJoe#1]

I agree it is backfiring, just as it did in the Scottish election, they clearly haven't learnt from that but then I'm not sure what else they could have done to compete with Boris's bullshit other than point out potential negatives of the change. Although in reality I do wonder whether they'd have been better off literally just not campaigning at all and trusting the public to see through Boris and Farage. Essentially a campaign like this (and the Scottish one) is inevitably going to end up being one of "what will it be like if we vote change" on both sides. As we don't know what it will be like then both sides are effectively bullshitting, one side in a negative tone, the other side with a positive tone. I just think it is a much easier campaign to fight for the exit camp, same as it was for the exit the UK camp in the Scottish election.

I think to campaign to exit is tough because of four things

A) There is no precedent so it's impossible to give facts about the future and prove anything
B) Anything that is said can be rightly legitimately challenged
C) There is no political unity in the Brexit camp so nothing can be given as a policy or manifesto pledge
D) The only thing that unites Brexit is the desire to leave, if we leave how plans will be developed will be very much along party lines which will the same splits in the Brexit camp, that will appear in the Tory camp if we remain to stay.

This vote is a public vote and it is the public will decide. Personally I think Cameron has had a stinker so far and has been Brexits strongest card. Just my thoughts.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Actually, (I think) that the Hitler comment can be seen as a criticism that should be placed at the door of the remain campaign.

The context of what was being explained was about the previous failed attempts to achieve a united Europe under a single governance body/country - it then got leapt on and all that was reported was what Remain wanted to be reported - i.e. about Hitler

Totally agree with that but it's something I think would have been better left unsaid. It gave the Remain camp the ammunition (no pun intended) they wanted.

But I do get the context in which it was said and meant!

 

[purplenose]

I think the events in France over the last couple of days are further evidence as to why we should get out of this union of nonsense. Not one Russian nicked despite running around France like an unopposed invading paramilitary....yet a couple of English lads jailed for throwing a plastic bottle....and people thing that closer union with these clowns are good for security....mother nature put the channel there with good reason.

 

[hilts]

I just cannot see a compelling argument to leave. We know what the status quo looks like and by staying in we can influence European legislation and attitudes going forwards.

The outs paint broad brush strokes about benefits from leaving but cannot define in detail what they are and some of their allegations are just plain wrong. For example - we are ruled by Europe and all our laws come from Brussels. There are 180 bills tabled so far for this parliament - that doesn't look like a country who just accepts laws from abroad.

I have heard we pay anything from £50m to £56m per day to the EU. Yes we would stop paying that but none of the outers say how that saved money would be spent. I doubt very much anybody of my "class" will see any of that money - no promises to use it to abolish NI for example. They talk about freedom to trade with the world - that just isn't so simple - there will be years of negotiations around the world with various countries and trading blocs to secure markets beyond the initial promise of a trade agreement. And when it comes to Europe forget what the current leaders say or promise in a few years time if it suits the then German chancellor or French President to fuck us over on trade they will.

It seems to me - mostly thanks to a right wing bias in the press the whole debate will revolve around immigration. Its about way way more than that and the irony will be that its likely leaving will make things worse If we aren't in the EU the French will put the entire population of the Jungle on trains and let them go set up shop on our South Coast - we won't have any fences any cops any border guards on French soil to try and stop it - why? Because we voted to come out of the EU.

We have the English Channel which is far better than any fence, if our French friends can send them to us we are just as capable of sending them straight back, your whole argument appears to be this field we live in might be a bit shit but I ain't wandering over that hill because they might be a cliff there.

I have enough faith in our population that they can make it work, I see it as an opportunity for change

 

[cibaman]

I agree it is backfiring, just as it did in the Scottish election, they clearly haven't learnt from that but then I'm not sure what else they could have done to compete with Boris's bullshit other than point out potential negatives of the change. Although in reality I do wonder whether they'd have been better off literally just not campaigning at all and trusting the public to see through Boris and Farage. Essentially a campaign like this (and the Scottish one) is inevitably going to end up being one of "what will it be like if we vote change" on both sides. As we don't know what it will be like then both sides are effectively bullshitting, one side in a negative tone, the other side with a positive tone. I just think it is a much easier campaign to fight for the exit camp, same as it was for the exit the UK camp in the Scottish election.

Staying in the EU is essentially like buying house insurance. Nobody really wants to buy it, its bought entirely for negative reasons.

There are valid arguments for not buying a particular insurance policy. It might be too expensive relative to the risks. It might not cover the right risks. There might be too many exclusions. But you could hardly be criticised for buying it just because your reasons are negative.

 

[bluethrunthru]

We have the English Channel which is far better than any fence, if our French friends can send them to us we are just as capable of sending them straight back, your whole argument appears to be this field we live in might be a bit shit but I ain't wandering over that hill because they might be a cliff there.

I have enough faith in our population that they can make it work, I see it as an opportunity for change

That will be the channel that illegal immigrants are sailing across then? A couple of examples of broken down boats recovered near Dymchurch in the last couple of weeks stand as tribute to the security of the channel. You can't send back what you can't find coz its melted into the night on landing in Kent. People who will cross hundreds of miles of Med to get to Southern Europe are bound to be crossing 20 odd miles of Channel. One reason they will be more successful is that they are at sea for so little time compared with a crossing from North Africa to Italy. Its not 1940 any more they are coming already and if we are out of the EU why would the French try to stop them? After all once they leave EU shores they are no longer an EU problem

 

[hilts]

That will be the channel that illegal immigrants are sailing across then? A couple of examples of broken down boats recovered near Dymchurch in the last couple of weeks stand as tribute to the security of the channel. You can't send back what you can't find coz its melted into the night on landing in Kent. People who will cross hundreds of miles of Med to get to Southern Europe are bound to be crossing 20 odd miles of Channel. One reason they will be more successful is that they are at sea for so little time compared with a crossing from North Africa to Italy. Its not 1940 any more they are coming already and if we are out of the EU why would the French try to stop them? After all once they leave EU shores they are no longer an EU problem

Firstly there will not be hundreds of thousands of people sneaking on boats coming over the channel every year, secondly the government could do more but choose not to and thirdly I find the argument people may sneak in anyhow so we may as well just Let everyone come in legally pretty daft. People shoplift and get Away with it, is the answer to this making theft legal?

 

[bluethrunthru]

The govt could do more - there are 5 inshore patrol boats but I read recently 3 are in dry dock currently to save money !

Why wouldn't there be thousands coming over? The leave campaign want us to believe 55m Turks will all abandon their homeland and come straight here ( despite traditional ties with Germany ) given EU membership. How come one scare is a legitimate claim and the other isn't? Those sat in the Jungle near Calais are actually there and I'd bet a pound to a penny given access to a boat most would give it a go to cross the channel.

I wouldn't advocate letting everyone come in either - however I'd say that to be in the EU and to comply by its rules does mean free movement of labour / citizens. Its about organising the rules from inside to suit. Given whats happening across Europe now is probably the best opportunity the UK would have to change structures to represent better what we feel our views are. I agree making theft legal is no way to stop shoplifting - however closing the shop would also stop it happening but hardly be constructive,

 

[sir baconface]

And in the last week or so they have shed their respectable skins and come out as the racists most of them are with
All the east European men are rapists

Your last point shows you to be the liar.

What were the actual words said and how many have repeated it?

I won't hold my breath for a straight answer.

 

[hilts]

The govt could do more - there are 5 inshore patrol boats but I read recently 3 are in dry dock currently to save money !

Why wouldn't there be thousands coming over? The leave campaign want us to believe 55m Turks will all abandon their homeland and come straight here ( despite traditional ties with Germany ) given EU membership. How come one scare is a legitimate claim and the other isn't? Those sat in the Jungle near Calais are actually there and I'd bet a pound to a penny given access to a boat most would give it a go to cross the channel.

I wouldn't advocate letting everyone come in either - however I'd say that to be in the EU and to comply by its rules does mean free movement of labour / citizens. Its about organising the rules from inside to suit. Given whats happening across Europe now is probably the best opportunity the UK would have to change structures to represent better what we feel our views are. I agree making theft legal is no way to stop shoplifting - however closing the shop would also stop it happening but hardly be constructive,

I said hundreds of thousands, like I said because some will illegally arrive doesn't mean you make it easier and legal for eu members, also they don't want you to believe that 55 million Turks will come, if that's what you grasp from up to 55 million will be allowed to then maybe they have given the public too much credit for having a brain cell. The greater the numbers that are allowed to enter will logically mean the numbers that do will be higher. The whole immigration debate is a numbers game for most.

For politicians it's about avoiding some harsh facts, for business it's about cheap labour, if people want to help wealthy businessmen and delay the harsh realities and dump it on their grandkids then fair enough. Running away from a problem is never the answer.

 

[hilts]

Your last point shows you to be the liar.

What were the actual words said and how many have repeated it?

I won't hold my breath for a straight answer.

The thing is both sides are berating the others for scare mongering or plain mistruths the the same posters do exactly the same thing, he won't admit he just lied

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Is there no low that Brexit won't stoop to?
This is fucking disgusting.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...shooting-free-movement-atrocity-a7079511.html

Fear mongering racist bastards