EU referendum

[yerwot?]

An overwhelming number of posters have to rely on the media for information. The carefully crafted headlines, the outright lies, the ever more lurid stories of the number of refugees are in response to the newspaper baron's diktats. Funnily enough they are all far right.
Apparently if we leave then all we have to do is trade with the rest of the world instead, simple. Like China and India, USA, Russia etc. But I thought we already did, puzzling.
Regarding the EU being corrupt, glass houses and stones spring to mind.
A thatcherite government as this one is, with it's big business friends and anti-worker ideologies being given free rein to roll back the country to Victorian times is to me much scarier than the hypothetical fairy tales about the future as portrayed by the likes of the mail.

 

[mat]

An overwhelming number of posters have to rely on the media for information. The carefully crafted headlines, the outright lies, the ever more lurid stories of the number of refugees are in response to the newspaper baron's diktats. Funnily enough they are all far right.
Apparently if we leave then all we have to do is trade with the rest of the world instead, simple. Like China and India, USA, Russia etc. But I thought we already did, puzzling.
Regarding the EU being corrupt, glass houses and stones spring to mind.
A thatcherite government as this one is, with it's big business friends and anti-worker ideologies being given free rein to roll back the country to Victorian times is to me much scarier than the hypothetical fairy tales about the future as portrayed by the likes of the mail.

All good points.

With the boundary changes and and out vote could lead to an effective one party state with the Tories taking their business planning and employments lead from the China model.

 

[CityStu]

Quick question - Cards on the table I will be voting in. If I am on the wrong side of the vote then I accept we go with the flow and I have to live with it and either stay in a UK thats outside the EU or - if I am still allowed to - move abroad to somewhere in the EU.

If I am on the winning side of the vote will all the outers agree to the same rules? i.e. thats it you lost shut up and live with it or will there be just endless campaigning to come out and complaining that we are in the EU? If that the plan then frankly can't see the point of a referendum.

I think that depends on how our relationship with the EU continues. If we remain at the status quo then absolutely - it's the will of the people that we're part of the club. If we sit on a trajectory that pushes us ever closer to political union, or introduces a truly unacceptable TTIP policy, or starts to spread its branches into the Middle East, then I will begin to consider the validity of the referendum result.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

An overwhelming number of posters have to rely on the media for information. The carefully crafted headlines, the outright lies, the ever more lurid stories of the number of refugees are in response to the newspaper baron's diktats. Funnily enough they are all far right.
Apparently if we leave then all we have to do is trade with the rest of the world instead, simple. Like China and India, USA, Russia etc. But I thought we already did, puzzling.
Regarding the EU being corrupt, glass houses and stones spring to mind.
A thatcherite government as this one is, with it's big business friends and anti-worker ideologies being given free rein to roll back the country to Victorian times is to me much scarier than the hypothetical fairy tales about the future as portrayed by the likes of the mail.

Not really mate. I've already quoted the official stats that show more immigrants come to the UK from outside the EU than within. OK the Daily Fail are jubilant that a Tory Minister refused to slap down a 16 year of Grammar School kid on question time who claimed we could reclaim our own borders lol! It is skills shortages, as interpreted by big business, that is driving immigration!

 

[CityStu]

Not really mate. I've already quoted the official stats that show more immigrants come to the UK from outside the EU than within. OK the Daily Fail are jubilant that a Tory Minister refused to slap down a 16 year of Grammar School kid on question time who claimed we could reclaim our own borders lol! It is skills shortages, as interpreted by big business, that is driving immigration!

Depends what credence you give to the official stats. The ONS reluctantly released the number of NI numbers given to EU migrants last year and it was over 600k (compared to the 200k or so in the official figures)! Now, you do need an NI number for even temporary work so the NI figures aren't entirely correct, but I have serious doubts that 2/3 of all EU migrants wanting an NI number are only planning to be here temporarily.

FYI, the official figures are created by surveys at airports, ports, stations, etc. Very easy to say you're going to do one thing before going on to actually do another...

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Most definitely out.
All I've seen from the inners is scare-mongering. This idea that we would fall apart because we aren't part of the club is laughable. We trade due to us having stuff to sell and money to buy. If countries don't see fit to trade with us then they will lose out too. We are the 5th largest economy in spite of the EU. Had we joined the Euro (and remember the scaremongering that was done to persuade us to join) we'd be in such a worse position.
I've seen a letter from a former ambassador to Japan who stated that Japan would prefer is to stay in. Yet Japan doesn't have to be a part of an ever closer political union with China and south Korea in order to trade with the rest of the world. Can you imagine that political union.
I've read today that our science would suffer unless we remain as part of a European bloc. Science goes beyond borders. Graphene was first produced by 2 Russians at Manchester. Russia isn't part of the EU. This idea that we couldn't attract the best talents unless we are within the EU is silly. What we currently have is a system that means an unskilled worker can arrive from Europe unchallenged. A talented and highly qualified individual from the rest of the world still has to go through all the paper work to get here.
The idea that anyone opposed to mass immigration is somehow isolationist is quite sad. Mass immigration unchecked puts huge strains on our medical, educational and housing sectors. When we take charge of our borders then we can control the influx and have a good idea of what is needed. IF the rest of Europe can walk in at any time then we have no idea what is needed. We also get to put all immigrants through the same qualifying standards.
I am sick of seeing projects that were ''funded by the EU'' we paid that money to the EU in the first place. We pay in more than we get out. The EU hasn't signed off it's accounts. Can you imagine the uproar if the UK government couldn't vouch for it's spending? Remember these idiots move their parliament every 6 months at great expense without any reason for it.
I'm sick of seeing that many equality laws are there because of the EU, as if somehow we are incapable of being progressive without some unelected bureaucrat telling us to be. We managed to build an NHS and abolish legal slavery without the EU.
Owen Jones (amongst others) has stated that we need to be a part of the EU so we can enact democratic change within Europe. Cameron asked for nothing, got even less and they are pretty much saying that it won't last long anyway, if it even gets past Euro MPs. If people honestly believe that these people are going to give up their gravy train to bring about democratic change then I pity you.
TTIP should show you what the EU thinks of democracy and the people. The fact that we started with a trade agreement and ended up with ever more centralised European government should show you what these people think about democracy. The EU is more than likely as corrupt as FIFA. They are certainly heavily lobbied by people with vested interests.


My hope is that a Brexit will also wake up the rest of Europe and the political elite can be told exactly were to put their big government. They say it is a risk to leave.It is just as much a risk to stay. This isn't about xenophobia or isolationism. It's about seeing the bigger global picture. It's about less centralised governance. It's about democratic choice. Don't throw that away by sticking with the status quo and being frightened into staying.

Good effort mate but I thought I would point out a few points in case it helps:

- The people trying to tackle the risks of TTIP are often pro EU. The French have achieved safeguards for their film industry whilst out leaders have done fuck all for the NHS.

- How do we control our borders by leaving the EU when most our immigration comes from outside the EU.

- I don't think we would fall apart if we would leave the EU. The most in depth economic analyses say we would probably break even in the longer term - with only the first couple of years being detrimental.

- how about the scare stories from outers on here about terrorists flooding into the UK if we stay in the EU. The reality is that we are exporting international terrorism and our Government is doing too little to late about this. Thank goodness for our effective security services!

- there are valid points to be in and out of the EU. Being mates with Russia isn't the greatest argument for leaving the EU though (as they bomb civilians in Syria!)

- we make most of our own decisions in this country including bombing Libya and Iraq that has done untold damage! collaborating more with other countries would probably do us a power of good!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Depends what credence you give to the official stats. The ONS reluctantly released the number of NI numbers given to EU migrants last year and it was over 600k (compared to the 200k or so in the official figures)! Now, you do need an NI number for even temporary work so the NI figures aren't entirely correct, but I have serious doubts that 2/3 of all EU migrants wanting an NI number are only planning to be here temporarily.

FYI, the official figures are created by surveys at airports, ports, stations, etc. Very easy to say you're going to do one thing before going on to actually do another...

Resasonable points CityStu and possibly even more telling is that our Government has admitted in recent years that it doesn't really know how many immigrants come into this country. If we can't count the EU people then I doubt very much that we have a reliable way of counting the non EU migrants, even though they are supposed to be subject to greater scrutiny!

Either way the control out own borders mantra of the outers is misleading and manipulative!

 

[CityStu]

Resasonable points CityStu and possibly even more telling is that our Government has admitted in recent years that it doesn't really know how many immigrants come into this country. If we can't count the EU people then I doubt very much that we have a reliable way of counting the non EU migrants, even though they are supposed to be subject to greater scrutiny!

Either way the control out own borders mantra of the outers is misleading and manipulative!

I disagree. I think control is the key word. We might want to bring in exactly the same number of immigrants as we do now, but control would allow us to bring in required, skilled workers rather than unskilled workers who are unlikely to make net contributions to the economy.

If people are here without permission then we will have the right to return them to where they arrived from. It also allows us to vote in a party depending on the immigration policies they are outlining in their manifestos. Currently there is absolutely no way to plan as we could have 10k people arrive from the EU or we could have 100k.

 

[Monkfish]

Should probably have had an undecided on this vote, be interesting to see how many have not made their mind up yet, I'm probably in but by no means totally convinced. I would imagine most undecided voters will vote in, seems the out voters made their mind up long ago.

 

[hgblue]

Quick question - Cards on the table I will be voting in. If I am on the wrong side of the vote then I accept we go with the flow and I have to live with it and either stay in a UK thats outside the EU or - if I am still allowed to - move abroad to somewhere in the EU.

If I am on the winning side of the vote will all the outers agree to the same rules? i.e. thats it you lost shut up and live with it or will there be just endless campaigning to come out and complaining that we are in the EU? If that the plan then frankly can't see the point of a referendum.

Yep, all those people who passionately believe that Britain is better off outside the EU will all shut up and realise what a wonderful institution it is. Just like the Scots have.