EU referendum

[mcfc1632]

So more big money bets have gone on Leave recently then?

I do not think that he understands

 

[cibaman]

That is understandable - but it does highlight a significant issue that is seemingly totally missed and one which leaves Cameron guilty of a gross dereliction of his duties to the country.

This is not a GE with people voting for a political party in accordance with a published manifesto. It is the government of the day that should have been undertaking the planning for what actions should be taken should there be a vote to leave and placing that in front of the electorate. Instead Cameron has hijacked the entire government apparatus to operate project fear.

I don't really get that. Are you saying that the government should have offered a choice of either "Remain" or "Leave - and on these terms"?

 

[mcfc1632]

A succinct and well put point of view.

Succinct indeed - but he nicked my Titanic analogy

 

[EalingBlue2]

1. SOME countries outside the EU have performed better. MANY clearly have not.

2. How many of these that have done better have 44% of their exports going to the EU? How many of them have a domestic manufacturing base that is dominated by foreign investment that is there largely because of the country being in the EU? How many of them have an economy dominated by their services sector? Answer: None.

You paint an irrelevant picture because we are uniquely dependent upon the EU in a way that none of the countries you might compare us to are.

Was thinking the same , Lawson is more intelligent than to pretend for example that The UK can be judged in the same way as a market at the other end of the world that doesn't trade with Europe

 

[mcfc1632]

I don't really get that. Are you saying that the government should have offered a choice of either "Remain" or "Leave - and on these terms"?

I genuinely mean no offence - but you are in the majority in not understanding this reality.

The Brexit camp will not be implementing the transition plan should there be a leave vote - it will be the elected government of this country.

It is absolutely Cameron's government's job to be undertaking contingency planning for this eventuality and ensuring that the populace is fully informed about the pros and cons of each outcome.

The fact that 'as an individual' he supports a Remain position is neither here nor there - his government's responsibility is to plan strategies and manage implementation on behalf of the coutry and this does include in the contingency planning for large impact possibilities - this is after not a 'no-briainer' it is a close vote.

Therefore he has totally abused his position in favour of his personal preference - indeed to intentionally limit and skew the amount of information available.

 

[FanchesterCity]

WIthout getting into 80's politics too much, when Mrs T came into power, she believed that manufacturing and labour were things for lesser nations, and that we shouldn't have to do such things - we should focus on more advanced 'services' - non tangible products. Selling advice / experience / consultancy etc and let the lesser nations do the menial manufacturing and mining tasks etc.
There was some logic to it (at the time), but decades later we've found ourselves still requiring tangible goods (no shit sherlock!), and being at the mercy of those capable of manufacturing them (or mining them). She thought we'd be so wealthy, we'd have no difficulty buying the products from the lesser nations, and there'd be enough nations doing the manufacturing that we couldn't be held to ransom.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with selling services, but its dangerous if the balance is tipped too heavily between services and tangible goods.
Whilst we still manufacture products, it's now often for foreign companies, so in essence we're now supplying the labour that she fought against, without reaping the iion's share of benefits of owning the company!

Germany is manufacturing very well, but also for it's own German businesses (as is the case with China, USA and Japan). We're the odd ones having become mostly a labour market (for manufacturers).
I don't want to diminish some great genuinely British manufacturers - but they're in the minority sadly.

Germany offers over 3 times our manufacturing output, Japan over 4 times, France about 10% more, Italy about 35% more. We're 11th in the manufacturing league - which is very respectable, but we aren't manufacturing for ourselves - we're doing it for foreign companies.

 

[FanchesterCity]

I genuinely mean no offence - but you are in the majority in not understanding this reality.

The Brexit camp will not be implementing the transition plan should there be a leave vote - it will be the elected government of this country.

It is absolutely Cameron's government's job to be undertaking contingency planning for this eventually and ensuring that the populace is fully informed about the pros and cons of each outcome.

The fact that 'as an individual' he supports a Remain position is neither here nor there - his government responsibility is to manage on behalf of the coutry and this does include in the contingency planning for large impact possibilities - this is after not a 'no-briainer' it is a close vote.

Therefore he has totally abused his position in favour of his personal reference - indeed to intentionally limit and skew the amount of information available.

I agree that any government needs to be planning for either outcome.
It will be very difficult for him to survive if we vote to leave.

Personally I feel the entire debate has become a bit of a farce on both sides, and as usual, more about personalities than policies. However, it's almost inevitable with a subject like this - it's akin to being for or against serious military action etc - you can't help but put forward personal opinion and dread the consequences of the alternative view being put into action. It's very hard then (should a vote go against you) to keep your position since you clearly cannot believe in the policy and will be perceived as being unable to fully commit to it thereafter (which might be unfair sometimes, but that's politics).

Sad as I am to say it, I suspect the vast majority of politicians nailing their colours to the mast are planning their own career strategies is the vote goes against them, rather than the nation's strategies.

 

[Matty]

There shouldn't be a referendum, and the fact there is should be enough, after the event, for David Cameron to resign, regardless of the result.

We vote in General Elections to decide upon a government, that government is then tasked with actually governing for the next 5 years, making the decisions that are required to keep the country running. We, the general public, have done our bit. We headed down to the polling stations in our millions, we cast our votes, we elected a government. It might not be the government some wanted but it's an elected government.

So, should we stay in the EU? How about those we actually elected make the fucking decision?! It's what we voted for them for, to make tough decisions and, more importantly, to be abreast of all the facts when doing so. Your average man on the street has absolutely no fucking clue whether we'd be better in or out of the EU, and you simply can't expect him to either. So quite why it was felt a good idea to put this decision in his ill informed hands is beyond me. A vote on something as fundamentally integral to the way the country will exist over the next few decades should be made from a cerebral place, the facts should be studied and a sensible, well thought out position should be reached before voting. That's not going to happen in a huge number of cases. Emotional votes will be cast, votes which simply ignore all the facts and evidence and go with what "the gut" says. That's a frightening position to find ourselves in, and it was an entirely avoidable one too.

Cameron's own bravado, cockiness, and intent on "going down in history" lead us into this referendum. He was convinced he'd be able to control the elements of his own party and that the referendum would be a resounding win for the "stay in" vote. Now he's realised the Tories are as divided on Europe as they ever were and he's running scared that the vote will go against him.

If a decision was required on staying in/leaving the EU then those who we elected to make such decisions should have been the ones making it. To delegate this decision to the masses is a huge mistake. Individual members of the public are intelligent, informed people who know what they are talking about and can reach an educated position on this matter. The general public as a whole are fucking morons who have no idea what they are voting for or the repercussions of it. We've entrusted the future of our country to the types of people who watch Geordie Shore and voted a dog the most talented act in Britain, twice. As I said, Cameron should resign after the vote for putting us into this dangerous position in the first place. Of course he won't, even if he's humiliated in defeat.

 

[west didsblue]

I genuinely mean no offence - but you are in the majority in not understanding this reality.

The Brexit camp will not be implementing the transition plan should there be a leave vote - it will be the elected government of this country.

It is absolutely Cameron's government's job to be undertaking contingency planning for this eventually and ensuring that the populace is fully informed about the pros and cons of each outcome.

The fact that 'as an individual' he supports a Remain position is neither here nor there - his government responsibility is to manage on behalf of the coutry and this does include in the contingency planning for large impact possibilities - this is after not a 'no-briainer' it is a close vote.

Therefore he has totally abused his position in favour of his personal reference - indeed to intentionally limit and skew the amount of information available.

That is the a key point. Any "manifesto" pledges made by the leave side are utterly meaningless and at best highly aspirational. As the majority of the cabinet and conservative MPs are pro-remain, it's highly unlikely that the pro-Brexit leaders will be part of a government following a leave vote.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

There shouldn't be a referendum, and the fact there is should be enough, after the event, for David Cameron to resign, regardless of the result.

We vote in General Elections to decide upon a government, that government is then tasked with actually governing for the next 5 years, making the decisions that are required to keep the country running. We, the general public, have done our bit. We headed down to the polling stations in our millions, we cast our votes, we elected a government. It might not be the government some wanted but it's an elected government.

So, should we stay in the EU? How about those we actually elected make the fucking decision?! It's what we voted for them for, to make tough decisions and, more importantly, to be abreast of all the facts when doing so. Your average man on the street has absolutely no fucking clue whether we'd be better in or out of the EU, and you simply can't expect him to either. So quite why it was felt a good idea to put this decision in his ill informed hands is beyond me. A vote on something as fundamentally integral to the way the country will exist over the next few decades should be made from a cerebral place, the facts should be studied and a sensible, well thought out position should be reached before voting. That's not going to happen in a huge number of cases. Emotional votes will be cast, votes which simply ignore all the facts and evidence and go with what "the gut" says. That's a frightening position to find ourselves in, and it was an entirely avoidable one too.

Cameron's own bravado, cockiness, and intent on "going down in history" lead us into this referendum. He was convinced he'd be able to control the elements of his own party and that the referendum would be a resounding win for the "stay in" vote. Now he's realised the Tories are as divided on Europe as they ever were and he's running scared that the vote will go against him.

If a decision was required on staying in/leaving the EU then those who we elected to make such decisions should have been the ones making it. To delegate this decision to the masses is a huge mistake. Individual members of the public are intelligent, informed people who know what they are talking about and can reach an educated position on this matter. The general public as a whole are fucking morons who have no idea what they are voting for or the repercussions of it. We've entrusted the future of our country to the types of people who watch Geordie Shore and voted a dog the most talented act in Britain, twice. As I said, Cameron should resign after the vote for putting us into this dangerous position in the first place. Of course he won't, even if he's humiliated in defeat.

Good post - there will be people actually voting in this that will not even know what the letters eu stand for which is quite scary