EU referendum

[hgblue]

Well I am sure that we can all feel your joy and understand your warm feelings based on positive experiences. I too have worked in several European countries and also enjoyed being in many other countries around the world.

All that pink and fluffiness might explain why you as an Individual have highly positive feelings towards Europe - but it has fuck all to do with why someone should vote remain or leave.

Remain posters on here keep saying leave voters are voting for the wrong reasons - well you certainly are based on that 'heart moving story'

I'm just as pro-European as he is and I'm voting Leave. Being anti-EU is not the same as being anti-European, and I'm surprised some struggle to get their heads round this. Look at the devastation the Euro has caused, look at the terrible response to the migrant crisis, and look at the rise of the right in countries where it would have been unheard of a few short years ago. A vote for Leave will provide a beacon of hope that there's another way and I'd expect others to follow, which is in the long term best interests of Europe as a whole as well as this country.

 

[BigJoe#1]

Instead of trying to find something to try and support your case try to find the truth. That goes for all of you. To many on here only want info to support their prejudices

This is bloody rich coming from you MF, you are probably the poster that adds least value to the positive arguement to remain, you simply take aim and fire at everything anyone who posts their support to leave.

Thanks for that you e really made me smile on this sunny evening

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Truth in what?

You never make yourself clear on what you mean whenever you say this. People who have decided to leave have done so on their own personal feelings on the EU.
I haven't swallowed any of the tripe from eithe campaign. If this page is about debating the effectiveness and truth of the EU referendum campaigns, i'm pretty sure everyone now is agreed that they are both equally as repugnant.

Does the EU want ever closer integration? Yes. Do I want that? No.
Is the EU pushing to create an EU Army? Yes. Do I want that? No.
Are EU commissioners accountable for their actions and can we, the voting public, remove them? No.
Anything else is 'debatable', such as has the EU been great for Britain? In my opinion no, not any more.
Is the Eurozone strengthening economically? No, I don't think it is.
Are other economic zones more attractive? Yes.
Can we freely choose to trade with these economic zones as we wish, unless already being negotiated by the EU? No.

Well there's seven reasons, there are plenty more. The Lisbon Treaty Referendums in France, Netherlands and Ireland are also influential. Past statements made by Barroso, Von Rompuy, Juncker about the EU and what they want it to be have also rankled and were what first caused me to doubt it. I've been over this all already and your yourself stated you can at least respect my opinion in that case as my choice to vote leave. Have you forgotten?

That's very well put and I agree with you on this. I was remain when this started and thought I would go back but the more outrageous the remain campaign has become it has made me( and others of a similar mindset who I speak with) be more resolute. Blair and major going to (London)Derry today and saying that the European referendum in two weeks is also a vote which could threaten the peace process; honestly. Well if it wasn't before , may be it is now you pair have brought it up and started fanning the flames.....totally totally Irresponsible.

 

[YPhrunts]

Good read that. It's fairly partisan, but all the same, it's a very good and emotive piece.

It gets to the nub of the problem, though most people I've spoken to don't see the legal aspect as important because they don't understand it regrettably.
I would imagine pressure is being applied in high places.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ges-fight-back-against-europes-imperial-cour/

 

[Metal Biker]

That's very well put and I agree with you on this. I was remain when this started and thought I would go back but the more outrageous the remain campaign has become it has made me( and others of a similar mindset who I speak with) be more resolute. Blair and major going to (London)Derry today and saying that the European referendum in two weeks is also a vote which could threaten the peace process; honestly. Well if it wasn't before , may be it is now you pair have brought it up and started fanning the flames.....totally totally Irresponsible.

Major and Blair should be dragged over the coals for their statements today.

 

[YPhrunts]

Major and Blair should be dragged over the coals for their statements today.

They are desperate men. They want to save face.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Why do we need each other for the immediate future?

Because 50% of our imports and exports are with the EU. We can't just switch that business off. The same goes for them, we are their single biggest customer (14%).
There are thousands of business with operations on either side who can't easily afford much disruption or additional tariffs. So short term, neither side can afford a huge fight / tariff war etc.
Longer term, we probably STILL need each other (unless businesses want to cut their noses off to spite their face) but we take more time to adjust to the consequences of the UK being out.

Voting out is only really formally expressing the desire to leave. Then we have to set about managing the transition without hurting our businesses (which in truth aren't really 'ours' or 'theirs' - they are businesses in their own right, and even those in the UK are often owned by EU based owners, and there's a few British owned operating in the EU too).

That's where many on the 'in' people (including me) base their concerns - that the transition out is going to hurt us - at least short term, and businesses will suffer. How much is anybody's guess.

That interlinking of businesses all over the EU makes the 'us' and 'them' type thinking very dangerous. If Santander fails, people in the UK lose jobs. If Telefonica (O2 owners, for the moment) fail, then people here lose jobs). If Airbus fails, guys at Rolls Royce lose contracts. So we need each other to be successful in so many ways.

There really isn't much of an 'us' and 'them' anymore (in terms on British vs European businesses). It's the EU as a governing body policing the trading that acts either as a disruptor or a facilitator on behalf of all the EU based businesses.

 

[jimmygrimblesboots]

Having weighed up all the pros and cons and opinions of the brexit and remain campaigns , i decided to go with the campaigners who told the least lies , Blair and Majors blatant lies about the N.Ireland peace protest being threatend because we are leaving europe has now convinced me to vote leave , absolute bare faced liars , (and Blair has form for this , with his weapons of mass destruction). Lets control our borders , get UK citizens working unskilled jobs instead of claiming benefits , and engage a points scoring system for ALL migrants , not just europeans , like the Aussies and the Yanks do , time to pull up the draw bridge ,or this island is going to sink.

 

[FanchesterCity]

This divorce analogy is proving to be decent...

The EU and the UK governments are like the parents - divorce could be on the cards.
The businesses are the children they get on just fine and don't like the bickering. They can probably cope if they are married, or if they are divorced, but they don't want the constant fighting because it's disruptive to businesses.

Both parents can't really just turn their backs on one another even if they tried... the kids (the businesses are so intermingled they can't be separated). Baby BMW has lots of things at Dads house in the UK, and baby Rolls Royce has stuff at mums in the EU.

Dad wants to go his own way, and that's fine - go and flirt with the Asian woman - Mum's already getting a seeing to from her French lover and there's a Spaniard in the waiting too.
Dad says he wants the car - but mums says 'fine, I'm keeping all the electronic goods'.... but mum has no car and dad has no electronic goods - so at until she's got a car, she's going to have to borrow his, and until he's got all his electronic good replaced, he's going to be borrowing the laptop.

Both will probably be relieved it's over, but they'll both suffer the scars of it for some time. Doesn't mean they should have stayed together for kids, but they probably could have managed it if they could give up imagining it's going to be great with the new partner.

Meanwhile the children have grown up and fucked off to America and don't care what they do anymore.

 

[Chippy_boy]

We are NOT Norway.

Norways GDP $366,873m, the UKs GDP 2,760,960m, with a GDP approximately 7.5 times bigger than Norways gives us a slightly stronger starting position. Plus please be aware if we vote to leave, when we do actually leave and take our money out of the EU budget things will look significantly different to how they look now. Strengths and negotiating stances will be very different.

All the inners have done is to say how it will affect us and I don't think I've seen anyone on here acknowledging what the impact will be on the EU and how it will affect them and their position and stance.

By how much would you think trade would drop if we had no trade agreement, or an agreement with tariffs? 10% say? Or less than that. Pick a number, I'd be really interested in what you have to say.

If we go with 10% then their exports would drop by 1.6%, i.e. be 98.4% unaffected. (Since 16% of the EU's exports are to the UK). What numbers would you like to go with?

 

[FanchesterCity]

Having weighed up all the pros and cons and opinions of the brexit and remain campaigns , i decided to go with the campaigners who told the least lies , Blair and Majors blatant lies about the N.Ireland peace protest being threatend because we are leaving europe has now convinced me to vote leave , absolute bare faced liars , (and Blair has form for this , with his weapons of mass destruction). Lets control our borders , get UK citizens working unskilled jobs instead of claiming benefits , and engage a points scoring system for ALL migrants , not just europeans , like the Aussies and the Yanks do , time to pull up the draw bridge ,or this island is going to sink.

I like your thinking - but the unskilled jobs are the ones our own people often kept turning down and choosing to abuse the benefits system instead (and still do).
How are we going to control our borders when we have control over ALL non-EU immigration already and can't manage? - we don't even know how many we've let in!
I agree with your sentiments about politicians and lies / spin, but even in their lying you're being swayed by them - albeit against them. Don't let ANY of them have that power. Ignore the politicians entirely and just go with what you believe is the most sensible approach. But please don't let the personalities and egos of politicians be the deciding factor.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Having weighed up all the pros and cons and opinions of the brexit and remain campaigns , i decided to go with the campaigners who told the least lies , Blair and Majors blatant lies about the N.Ireland peace protest being threatend because we are leaving europe has now convinced me to vote leave , absolute bare faced liars , (and Blair has form for this , with his weapons of mass destruction). Lets control our borders , get UK citizens working unskilled jobs instead of claiming benefits , and engage a points scoring system for ALL migrants , not just europeans , like the Aussies and the Yanks do , time to pull up the draw bridge ,or this island is going to sink.

Didn't realise you were an expert on Irish politics Jimmy. Please can you explain what all the "lies" were? Things that were said that are factually incorrect perhaps?

 

[hgblue]

This divorce analogy is proving to be decent...

The EU and the UK governments are like the parents - divorce could be on the cards.
The businesses are the children they get on just fine and don't like the bickering. They can probably cope if they are married, or if they are divorced, but they don't want the constant fighting because it's disruptive to businesses.

Both parents can't really just turn their backs on one another even if they tried... the kids (the businesses are so intermingled they can't be separated). Baby BMW has lots of things at Dads house in the UK, and baby Rolls Royce has stuff at mums in the EU.

Dad wants to go his own way, and that's fine - go and flirt with the Asian woman - Mum's already getting a seeing to from her French lover and there's a Spaniard in the waiting too.
Dad says he wants the car - but mums says 'fine, I'm keeping all the electronic goods'.... but mum has no car and dad has no electronic goods - so at until she's got a car, she's going to have to borrow his, and until he's got all his electronic good replaced, he's going to be borrowing the laptop.

Both will probably be relieved it's over, but they'll both suffer the scars of it for some time. Doesn't mean they should have stayed together for kids, but they probably could have managed it if they could give up imagining it's going to be great with the new partner.

Meanwhile the children have grown up and fucked off to America and don't care what they do anymore.

Would you advise a woman to stay in a controlling relationship which she isn't happy with anymore because she's better off financially?

 

[shemnel]

Having weighed up all the pros and cons and opinions of the brexit and remain campaigns , i decided to go with the campaigners who told the least lies , Blair and Majors blatant lies about the N.Ireland peace protest being threatend because we are leaving europe has now convinced me to vote leave , absolute bare faced liars , (and Blair has form for this , with his weapons of mass destruction). Lets control our borders , get UK citizens working unskilled jobs instead of claiming benefits , and engage a points scoring system for ALL migrants , not just europeans , like the Aussies and the Yanks do , time to pull up the draw bridge ,or this island is going to sink.

do you think the UK will join the single market if it Leaves the EU?

 

[FanchesterCity]

No we are NOT Norway

Norway has oil which accounts for the lion's share of income.
Norway has 30% of GDP national debt - we have 90% - yes NINETY!!!

I don't know if I'd swap with them, but they wouldn't be a bad nation to trade places with all in all.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Would you advise a woman to stay in a controlling relationship which she isn't happy with anymore because she's better off financially?

Well in my analogy, the dad was the UK, but using your analogy... no, she should leave. But she can't then complain if her financial circumstances take a dip. Good luck to her - she's made a choice. She might meet a rich bloke and be better off - or get made redundant and have to sell the car and discover she's not quite as attractive as she thought.

 

[Monkfish]

Fuck me just seen an advert for leave, no wonder your all and making shit up

 

[Chippy_boy]

The country is being held back by the EU. No what club or association you consider, it will always be nigh on impossible to get 28 very different, very driven, very focused individuals to agree on anything. The EU is too big, too cumbersome, too bureaucratic, too costly to work efficiently. It is already cracking and I think we would prosper equally as well out of it.

Finally regarding Turkey and their wanna be cohorts. I accept they will not join the EU anytime soon.... however, Turkey has already secured visa free travel in The Shengen zone which to many people is the same as being in the EU. I appreciate that we are not part of the Shengen zone, but in my opinion this merely the thin end of the wedge, the beginning of the end and I certainly don't want to be part of that implosion. You guys may feel comfortable being part of it I'm not.

My opinion, I can't expect you to agree with it but that's how I feel and there are many many more like me, just as there are many many more who share your views.

So we could do "equally well"? Presumably then that's not enough motivation to leave, just to do "equally well", given that every must surely accept that there is at least some risk.

Can I gather therefore that immigration and in particular Turkey is your main motivation?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Just watched the Brexit ad on TV. Can Brexiters please point out me which bits wernt lies lol eg.
£350m on the NHS?
Turkey joining the EU?
Anyone who cares for an older person is white and English?
The EU will queue up to do a trade deal with us?

Plenty of misinformation from both sides but anyone trying to play the Brexit "honesty card" is a complete hypocrite!

 

[hgblue]

Well in my analogy, the dad was the UK, but using your analogy... no, she should leave. But she can't then complain if her financial circumstances take a dip. Good luck to her - she's made a choice. She might meet a rich bloke and be better off - or get made redundant and have to sell the car and discover she's not quite as attractive as she thought.

Your argument is basically 'yes he's a bit controlling and doesn't let you make your own decisions, but you're not good enough to cope on your own'. Mine is 'leave the twat and be confident that you can thrive on your own'. I know which argument is most compelling to me.