EU referendum

[yep]

Old Butch

John was in the fertilized egg business.He had several hundred young layers (hens), called 'pullets,' and ten roosters to fertilize the eggs.
He kept records, and any rooster not performing went into the soup pot and was replaced.This took a lot of time, so he bought some tiny
bells and attached them to his roosters.Each bell had a different tone, so he could tell from a distance, which rooster was performing.

Now, he could sit on the porch and fill out an efficiency report by just listening to the bells.John's favorite rooster, old Butch, was a very
fine specimen, but this morning he noticed old Butch's bell hadn't rung at all!

When he went to investigate, he saw the other roosters were busy chasing pullets, bells-a-ringing, but the pullets, hearing the roosters coming, would
run for cover.To John's amazement, old Butch had his bell in his beak, so it couldn't ring.He'd sneak up on a pullet, do his job and walk on to the next one.

John was so proud of old Butch, he entered him in a County Fair and he became an overnight sensation among the judges.
The result was the judges not only awarded old Butch the "No Bell Piece Prize," but they also awarded him the "Pulletsurprise" as well.

Clearly old Butch was a politician in the making. Who else but a politician could figure out how to win two of the most coveted awards on our
planet by being the best at sneaking up on the unsuspecting populace and screwing them when they weren't paying attention.

Vote carefully this June, the bells are not always audible.

 

[halfcenturyup]

There probably will be calls for referenda. But it seems to me that the clever option would be to wait a couple of years to see how the UK gets on. And how the EU responds to Brexit. Let the UK be the guinea pig.

The smart move would be for the outers to be discussing with the outers in Holland the next move if the UK votes out ....

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Food for thought... Sorry I know this is a bit long but thought it might be of use in helping you decide .... It's a little one sided but informative!

I've nicked this from Facebook so you may have seen it and it's not been checked or verified but here's a list of pillage of our beloved industries whilst in the EU...

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.


Find something that's gone the other

My plumber is Thai along with everyone else who provides me a service, so I am pretty neutral in all this. I just think that immigration is a real issue for a lot of the population, rightly or wrongly, and if the "establishment" can't counter that with strong positive reasons why the UK should stay, then they will lose. All this doom and gloom stuff will backfire IMHO.

I agree immigration is an important issue. I don't have much confidence in the Government or the Brexiters on this.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

That might be realistic if it wasn't for the fact that Turkey is light years away from meeting EU entry criteria

Quite a few of the existing members didn't meet the criteria but the tests were fudged so they appeared to. If the EU decide Turkey is coming in, they'll be in.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Quite a few of the existing members didn't meet the criteria but the tests were fudged so they appeared to. If the EU decide Turkey is coming in, they'll be in.

The test were certainly fudged for the Eurozone. If it can down to it and we knew Turkey hadn't met the EU requirements, we could use our veto!

 

[halfcenturyup]

Quite a few of the existing members didn't meet the criteria but the tests were fudged so they appeared to. If the EU decide Turkey is coming in, they'll be in.

Definitely the right answer. And there is no doubt that Europe is the preferred destination for poorer Turks looking for a better life. How many Turks are there in Russia and China? Turkish immigration into Holland is one of their big issues.

 

[yep]

Baldrick: "What I want to know, sir, is before there was a Euro there were lots of different types of money that different people used. Now there's only one type of money that the foreign people use. Now what I want to know is, how did we get from one state of affairs to the other state of affairs".

Blackadder: "Baldrick, do you mean, how did the Euro start?”

Baldrick: "Yes sir."

Blackadder: "Well, you see, Baldrick, back in the 1980's there were many different countries all running their own finances and using different types of money. On one side you had the major economies of France, Belgium, Holland and Germany and on the other, the weaker nations of Spain, Greece, Ireland, Italy and Portugal. They got together and decided that it would be much easier for everyone if they could all use the same money, have one Central Bank and belong to one large club where everyone would be happy. This meant that there could never be a situation whereby financial meltdown would lead to social unrest, wars and crises."

Baldrick: "But this is sort of a crisis, isn't it sir?”

Blackadder: "That's right, Baldrick. You see, there was only one slight flaw with the plan."

Baldrick: "What was that then sir?"

Blackadder: "It was bollocks."

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

It probably depends what he actually said. If he just said it will put jobs at risk it doesn't mean anything. Jobs are at risk every time the currency moves, shares move, oil price moves, every time the Board makes a strategic decision. So that could be catrgoriaed as scare-mongering. If he quantified the risk and explained it coherently, that is a different matter, but I don't know how he could do that as no-one knows what will happen, do they?

thanks for the reply.....I havent seen the letter the BT chairman has sent to his members, as it was an interview on the news this morning...but for me(as you mention)it isnt scare-mongering if he did in fact set out in the letter, what he feels and why he feels that way? Isnt that what the "leave" campaign do every day?....set out why they feel "leave" is best and why? there is nothing wrong in that... The word "scare-mongering" seems to be the "in" word at the moment when "outs" dont have an answer or counter argument....so "deny" because it doesnt fit their opinion, without even knowing if its true and no one knows if any of us are right at this point.....Over the last week the list just goes on and on of outs just trying to discredit expert reports/opinions without having a shred of proof themselves that the info they are hearing is right or wrong....If you look at my comments during this thread, I will argue my opinion but have never tried to discredit a report or claim that I know more than the experts....the amount of overnight economy experts, immigration experts and eu trade agreement specialists on the "outs" is quite amazing.....just seems alittle arrogant!

 

[The perfect fumble]

Immigration is one facet.

Sovereignty is another.

The economic argument is unknown for obvious reason.

Sovereignty? Beyond a relatively small group who bang on about the Germans yet are happy to suck American dick in all things it's not a vote winner. We're a nation with an unelected House of Commons, a first past the post election system and a monarchy, we dance to IMF and World Bank tunes, we're happy to play by the rules of NATO and the UN, we are signatories to countless treaties that constrain what we do, yet the EU, the Brexiters would have us believe, uniquely constrains our sovereignty. Besides, were we to leave but still wish to have open access to EU markets we'll still have to dance to an EU song only this time with no ability to change the record.

As for....

The economic argument is unknown for obvious reason.

The only "unknown" is just how disastrous it will be.

 

[halfcenturyup]

thanks for the reply.....I havent seen the letter the BT chairman has sent to his members, as it was an interview on the news this morning...but for me(as you mention)it isnt scare-mongering if he did in fact set out in the letter, what he feels and why he feels that way? Isnt that what the "leave" campaign do every day?....set out why they feel "leave" is best and why? there is nothing wrong in that... The word "scare-mongering" seems to be the "in" word at the moment when "outs" dont have an answer or counter argument....so "deny" because it doesnt fit their opinion, without even knowing if its true and no one knows if any of us are right at this point.....Over the last week the list just goes on and on of outs just trying to discredit expert reports/opinions without having a shred of proof themselves that the info they are hearing is right or wrong....If you look at my comments during this thread, I will argue my opinion but have never tried to discredit a report or claim that I know more than the experts....the amount of overnight economy experts, immigration experts and eu trade agreement specialists is quite amazing.....just seems alittle arrogant!

Maybe. I am cynical enough to know that expert opinions can be bought and sold and judge opinions based on motivation as much as anything and common sense. Common sense tells me know one knows how it will pan out if we stay in or leave.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Really?

- The models he developed while at Liverpool University are now considered the standard ones among forecasters.
- He wasn't one of the 364 economists who wrote to The Times decrying Thatcher's fiscal policies. Whatever else Thatcher was responsible for, her fiscal policies, including free movement of capital and control of the money supply, were clearly for the better. So he was right on that.
- He opposed Lawson's shadowing of the Deutschmark, which he was right on.
- He opposed entry inti the EMU/Euro, which he was right on.

He is actually one of the least discredited and most far-sighted economists of the modern era.

You do have a habit of engaging in a debate with me and then when it doesn't turn out the way you like taking your ball away.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Food for thought... Sorry I know this is a bit long but thought it might be of use in helping you decide .... It's a little one sided but informative!

I've nicked this from Facebook so you may have seen it and it's not been checked or verified but here's a list of pillage of our beloved industries whilst in the EU...

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.


Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't.if you think the EU is a good idea, are you sure?

So fears of Brexit is already driving investment from the UK to mainland Europe?

Good post but I am not too sure about the British Army vehicle example!

It also shows up our lack of a long term plan as a Country on manufacturing!

 

[Pino]

Apparently you can’t buy a pair of brown trousers in Brussels for love nor money.

 

[Mike D]

The central point to Brexit isn't sovereignty or anything else its the dog whistle politics of immigration. The leave campaign know that this is the key plank for traditional labour and conservative voters who are edging towards Brexit. Sadly its the older generation of little Englanders who always vote are sadly people who I know only to well would be happy to take a step backwards if it ment getting what they want.

I do not believe for 1 minute that a Gove someone who openly admits to wanting to privatise health is all of a sudden at the drop of a sudden hugging trees and wanting to throw boat loads of cash at the NHS. Or that cuddly floppy hared Boris wants to do anything other than take a bonfire to workers rights and cheer lead tax avoiders. As much as I despise Cameron and his Bullingdon chums for wrecking our country letting in this rabid rabble of knuckle dragging right fills me within an even bigger fear.

 

[Blue Til Death]

Cameron knows the game is up, hence the slightly veiled threat to abuse our pensions if we vote to leave, which we will... To top it all they now wheel Gordon Brown out to spew forth his two penneth..... :-) could they have wheeled anyone worse out, now Blair has chipped in...!

The bottom line is that we will be voting to leave shortly, 100% nailed on... I for one am chuffed to fuck about it as we will be far better off than we are with the euro albatross wrapped around our necks... Happy days ahead...!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Apparently you can’t buy a pair of brown trousers in Brussels for love nor money.

Haha! This probably balances out the people of Marseille asking if they can join the Brexit camapaign!

[And I haven't forgotten about the Russian and French ultras!]

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

The central point to Brexit isn't sovereignty or anything else its the dog whistle politics of immigration. The leave campaign know that this is the key plank for traditional labour and conservative voters who are edging towards Brexit. Sadly its the older generation of little Englanders who always vote are sadly people who I know only to well would be happy to take a step backwards if it ment getting what they want.

I do not believe for 1 minute that a Gove someone who openly admits to wanting to privatise health is all of a sudden at the drop of a sudden hugging trees and wanting to throw boat loads of cash at the NHS. Or that cuddly floppy hared Boris wants to do anything other than take a bonfire to workers rights and cheer lead tax avoiders. As much as I despise Cameron and his Bullingdon chums for wrecking our country letting in this rabid rabble of knuckle dragging right fills me within an even bigger fear.

This is the arrogance of the remain campaign...you couldn't get more stereotypes into a post if you tried..the smug holier than thou 'I know best' attitude of the remain is what has turned the neutrals to leave

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Maybe. I am cynical enough to know that expert opinions can be bought and sold and judge opinions based on motivation as much as anything and common sense. Common sense tells me know one knows how it will pan out if we stay in or leave.

thanks again....I agree completely.....I also dont take everything at face value but in some cases it difficult to completely disregard expert opinion when its overwhelmingly for or against something.....Even if we dont agree, I beleive you atleast listen......if we are cynical of them all because of a few, then we are in danger of allowing ourselves to become narrow-minded and risk missing the important points of a debate...is that fair to say?

 

[Saddleworth2]

This is the arrogance of the remain campaign...you couldn't get more stereotypes into a post if you tried..the smug holier than thou 'I know best' attitude of the remain is what has turned the neutrals to leave

Mate, i think both campaigns have shown arrogance and duplicity and both have as much an eye on their own personal ambitions than the rights or wrongs of the argument. Its going to be down to each of us to use our own common sense without the benefits of a coherent and believable argument on either side.

 

[SWP's back]

Sovereignty? Beyond a relatively small group who bang on about the Germans yet are happy to suck American dick in all things it's not a vote winner. We're a nation with an unelected House of Commons, a first past the post election system and a monarchy, we dance to IMF and World Bank tunes, we're happy to play by the rules of NATO and the UN, we are signatories to countless treaties that constrain what we do, yet the EU, the Brexiters would have us believe, uniquely constrains our sovereignty. Besides, were we to leave but still wish to have open access to EU markets we'll still have to dance to an EU song only this time with no ability to change the record.

As for....


The only "unknown" is just how disastrous it will be.

...in your opinion.