Explosion at MEN Arena/Victoria Station

[MeatnSpudsMCFC]

I think we really do need to move away from the idea that you're a massive lefty or part of the PC brigade if you don't subscribe to the idea that anyone being under suspicion of being an ISIS sympathiser should be locked up indefinitely. It's more a case of wanting a course of action that actually works. I really couldn't care less what happens to any individual that supports the mass slaughter of innocent people and I really wouldn't lose sleep over the idea of somebody that supports ISIS or their viewpoint being locked up in a prison for the rest of their lives. The problem I have is that I don't think it would work and it would actually lead to further radicalisation of more people, something I think we all agree should be avoided. I think that in the vast majority of cases it would be nigh on impossible to identify who an actual supporter of ISIS is and innocent people would end up in prison. Now some people think a few innocents being locked up is an acceptable level of collateral damage if it prevents further atrocities (I agree, it probably would be the lesser of two evils). The problem is if you think locking up innocent people plays into the hands of terrorists and would lead to further radicalisation, then it doesn't make you a bleeding heart liberal to be against what he's suggesting, it's just common sense.

I concur with this statement, somewhat.

Nigel Farage popped up on my TL on twitter, as always he talked on fox news of action being taken, but it was all rhetoric. Katie Hopkins, Tommy Robinson, Daily Mail et al. all call for shutting borders. If it would actually solve it, I would go with it. However, the man who carried out the attack was born here as are most who carry out such attacks.

I don't think anyone has anything that can be deemed tangible in dealing with this problem. If they did this problem would've be dealt with many years ago. I consider myself centre-left and i'm open to ideas as to how to prevent further attacks, but it needs to be practical and not bordering on genocide as some closely suggest.

 

[yeah whatever !!]

Embarrassing toe curling claptrap, ISIS will be quaking in their boots, ooohhh look, a gritty Northern poet spouting crap, we had better stay away from Manchester their poets are better than our propaganda

You do know that Xiphos is ancient greek for cocksucker don't you..??


No ??? Lol.

The pen is mightier than the sword...

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

just found out my friends flat/ building got raided today. apparently people who are in connection with the attack lived/reside in the same building.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

This is why they suicide bomb. Their goal is to create anger towards Muslims who they hope will then join them, and to encourage the countries to start bombing them to get that coalition moving.

This is also why I'm pretty irritated by people playing directly into their hands on this thread and elsewhere.

Without quoting the rest of the post, this is absolutely the key point. They want a war between Muslims and the West and the best reaction is not to help them achieve that because then they've failed. Of course the security services have to do their bit and they're saying they currently have the resources to do it. But the best way to defeat this, as geoff clipp says, is to take the long view rather than being sucked into knee-jerk reactions that serve a perceived short term need but screw things up for the long-term, such as internment in Northern Ireland or Guantanamo Bay. It may be slow, progress almost imperceptible, have little PR value and may not even be 100% effective but the only thing that would possibly be effective is a totalitarian society and I'm sure not many of us want that. It's bad enough now when you can be arrested and imprisoned for simply looking at the wrong websites, without any intention of doing anything.

There are a number of users on Twitter demanding "strong action". Here's one:

If we are going to save our civilisation the first people we must go after are the media, politicians, academics, police chiefs.

He's as much as an extremist as they are, who would imprison or kill people who don't look or think the same way he and his ilk do.

 

[Leto]

The building is Granby House, not granby row but is next to Granby Row. Granby House is closer to Princess Street

The building is Granby House which is on Granby Row.

 

[Two Gun Bob]

I hardly ever read long posts because I can't be arsed, but I read all of that and found it extremely interesting and enlightening: Thanks for taking the time to post it.

But let me ask you this: Since we in the west rarely, if ever these days, carry out acts of terrorism in the name of Christianity, we've clearly grown out of and away from the literal interpretations in the Bible. It seems pretty logical to me (as a 100% devout atheist) that this should have come to pass because with every advance in technology and our understanding of the earth and indeed the universe, it becomes more compellingly clear that the ancient writings in the Bible are a load of old cobblers. Mumbo jumbo from an ancient time that serves no purpose in a modern scientific era. We've been told porkies for centuries, and been gullible enough to believe it. But now, believing that God created the heavens and the earth in 6 days, is the view only of loonies few and far between. Thankfully also, loonies not motivated to use violence to further their views.

So how do we over time, persuade people that these literal interpretations of the Quran are similarly flawed? It would seem to me that Isis and others are not much different to how we were 500 years ago, and that enlightenment will occur naturally in time. The question is, how do we accelerate the process?

Religions tend to preach death and destruction in their mantra.
Fact of the matter is that we have moved on from the fookwittery we call radical islam.
Five hundred years behind humanity and a stone aged belief system non conducive to twentieth century living.

We all interact and work with muslims cristians jews and agnostics.
The problem to hand is with none of them.
Radical islam and its filthy pig like mantra is where the problem lies.

What can we do as a civilised society then.
Well we can stop walking on egg shells and wasting too much enegry into who we may possibly offend.
We are effictively at war with these barbaric bastards and the needs of the many now outway the few.

Our security forces are falling way short of the mark in potecting decent law abiding citizens.
Our venues are falling way short of what is expected in respect to security.
The goverments warning level for the past year has been that an attack is imminent.
And yet a tripadvisor review of the MEN arena slates rhe security two weeks previously saying it was non existent..

Anyone suspected of terror against our nation should be removed from society.
Any person who goes to train or has affiliation with isis cnunts should be refused entry back into this fine country.
This hallowed place that welcomes al nations to its shores in peace and understanding.and love

All mosques preaching hatred and bile should be closed down.
We know the mosques concerned through undercover broadcasting programmes.
Take action against all that do not wish to embrace our culture and friendly nature and welcoming hand to outsiders.

The answer is out there but we had better act fast or we are going to run out of #hashtags.
This could have been any of your daughters or wives.
My daughter wanted to go but the cost was prohibitive.
Radical islam is nothing but a dirty disease and it needs to be removed.
Try not to be offended too much and allow our security forces to make some headway in battling this cancer from our midsts..

Adio.

 

[geoff clipp]

Why do people assume it would lead to more radicalisation? What's a course of action that works? It's all well and good saying "educate" but that will take generations to see

"course of action that actually works". What action is this? Allowing extremists who obviously support isis to walk the streets? No, tighten the laws and remove them from society. Police shouldn't need a library full of evidence to lock a piece of scum up.

Long term solutions to stop radicalisation are all well and good...but what about short term? Do we just accept that this is a part of life now and hope it doesn't directly affect us or our close ones? Pretty bleak outlook...

The reason I assume locking up potentially innocent young muslim men will lead to further radicalisation is because you're creating a massive sense of injustice in people. You're marginalising people and you're othering them. You're telling them they're second class citizens and it's rich pickings for the likes of ISIS to start turning their heads.

Again, it's just down to personal opinion, because nobody really has the answers here, but my own view is that so long as people are being radicalised you actually can't completely stop these things from happening. Therefore I would put more energy into creating an environment in which people are less likely to become radicalised in the hope we can make these occurrences rarer. Surveillance and legislation have a role to play for sure but I also think engagement with communities and investment is a more effective long term solution. I'm pretty sure i'm going to be tarred with the leftie brush for this, but I also think we don't really have enough positive representations of young muslim men in the media and it means a lot of the role models they go and seek out themselves can leave them vulnerable to radicalisation (the actor Riz Ahmed gave a speech about this in parliament and it made a lot of sense to me) http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...sity-in-tv-leads-people-to-isis-a7610861.html

I'm not claiming to have a definitive answer on what does and doesn't work, i just wanted to make the point that some people aren't opposed to mass internment because they think it's unfair, it's because they think it will make matters worse.

 

[Tugay One Cup]

A poet getting criticised for reading poetry, what the fuck is that all about? Nobody is pretending words can bring victims back from the dead but they can inspire those feeling helpless and scared. Those people are doing far more good than those who do nothing other than hide at home insulting them for it behind a computer screen.

Some real self righteousness on here and it's not needed whatsoever.

 

[Thaksinssoldier]

A poet getting criticised for reading poetry, what the fuck is that all about? Nobody is pretending words can bring victims back from the dead but they can inspire those feeling helpless and scared. Those people are doing far more good than those who do nothing other than hide at home insulting them for it behind a computer screen.

Some real self righteousness on here and it's not needed whatsoever.

I think the issue is that stuff like this and vigils etc are nowadays seen as action, when it clearly accomplishes nothing other than to make ones self feel better.(in this particular case, that's probably not a bad thing). But folk have a tendency to use those things as a way of moving on, and in some ways folk take offense to the idea of moving on in this manner while the west is effectively being attacked.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

The reason I assume locking up potentially innocent young muslim men will lead to further radicalisation is because you're creating a massive sense of injustice in people. You're marginalising people and you're othering them. You're telling them they're second class citizens and it's rich pickings for the likes of ISIS to start turning their heads..

i know there isn't an easy answer, as you say, but surely people with known terrorist links should be locked up ? none one wants innocent people locked up and you have to have the evidence, but surely the scumbag who carried out this attack should have been in jail or under police surveillance. i can't see anyone muslim or not being outraged by that.