Football Lads and Lasses against Facism

Ban-jani said:
You make a good point, however the argument is on whether it’s as immoral to be a Communist or a Nazi.

You’re certainly right in that to achieve Communism in the 19th and early 20th century you would have needed to revolutionise and murder, something they were very willing to do and Communist leaders and figureheads throughout history have seen little importance of human life.

However my point is that being a Communist and following the principles does not necessarily mean murder and it certainly isn’t as abhorrent as being a supporter of Nazism.

You can be a fully fledged Communist and not support murder, you cannot if you’re the Nazis biggest fans.
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Don't agree. The whole essence of communism is violence and murdering those who are in the way. It's explicitly stated in the whole belief system. Anyone who is a communist signs up to it, just as any Nazi would too. There is no difference. It is an evil, despicable, murderous philosophy, and those who subscribe to it and claim they don't approve are no different to those who would try and claim they are non-violent Nazis.

Another Karl Marx quote for you: "The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way… They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust."

Evil. Utter, disgusting evil. And so are those who subscribe to it. When John McDonnell proudly proclaims he is a Marxist, this is what he subscribes to, not least when he advocates violent revolution, which he has done.
 
Henkeman said:
Don't agree. The whole essence of communism is violence and murdering those who are in the way. It's explicitly stated in the whole belief system. Anyone who is a communist signs up to it, just as any Nazi would too. There is no difference. It is an evil, despicable, murderous philosophy, and those who subscribe to it and claim they don't approve are no different to those who would try and claim they are non-violent Nazis.

Another Karl Marx quote for you: "The classes and the races too weak to master the new conditions of life must give way… They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust."

Evil. Utter, disgusting evil. And so are those who subscribe to it. When John McDonnell proudly proclaims he is a Marxist, this is what he subscribes to, not least when he advocates violent revolution, which he has done.
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That is an evil quote, quite correct.

I still think supporting Nazism is more abhorrent than Communism.

Most of the violence from Communists is put forward to get to Communism, you can be a Communist and not support that, you can’t be a Nazi and not support the holocaust.

I still think Communism is incredibly dangerous and has given humanity a lot of evil, that’s often overlooked.
 
Ban-jani said:
That is an evil quote, quite correct.

I still think supporting Nazism is more abhorrent than Communism.

Most of the violence from Communists is put forward to get to Communism, you can be a Communist and not support that, you can’t be a Nazi and not support the holocaust.

I still think Communism is incredibly dangerous and has given humanity a lot of evil, that’s often overlooked.
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No, you cannot be a communist and not support violent revolution. That's what communism is all about. Entirely about. It is fundamental to it.

I find the desire to excuse one vicious, murderous, genocidal philosophy but not the other frankly weird. Personally, I don't choose a favourite between inherently mass murdering political beliefs, maybe I'm the weird one.
 
Henkeman said:
No, you cannot be a communist and not support violent revolution. That's what communism is all about. Entirely about. It is fundamental to it.

I find the desire to excuse one vicious, murderous, genocidal philosophy but not the other frankly weird. Personally, I don't choose a favourite between inherently mass murdering political beliefs, maybe I'm the weird one.
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I’m not excusing anyone.

I just find Nazism more abhorrent in the nature of what it’s trying to achieve.

You can support being a Communist through being elected.

I know revolutions are key to Communism, hence why I hate it, as well that it simply doesn’t work, but what Communism wants to achieve isn’t as bad as what Nazism wants to achieve, that’s all I’m saying.
 
Ban-jani said:
I’m not excusing anyone.

I just find Nazism more abhorrent in the nature of what it’s trying to achieve.

You can support being a Communist through being elected.

I know revolutions are key to Communism, hence why I hate it, as well that it simply doesn’t work, but what Communism wants to achieve isn’t as bad as what Nazism wants to achieve, that’s all I’m saying.
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Sheer sophistry. You could argue that you can be a fascist and support that by being elected too. It is no different, in any whatever. Violent insurrection and mass slaughter is inherent to both or neither. The aims of communism are explicitly the extermination of entire classes of people. You can't excuse one and not the other, and you are doing exactly that.
 
Henkeman said:
Sheer sophistry. You could argue that you can be a fascist and support that by being elected too. It is no different, in any whatever. Violent insurrection and mass slaughter is inherent to both or neither. The aims of communism are explicitly the extermination of entire classes of people. You can't excuse one and not the other, and you are doing exactly that.
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You think I’m guilty of sophistry, I think you’re guilty of over-simplicity.

Both are bad, I just think one is worse to identify as now.

Nothing I’ve said is excusing what Communists have done. It’s quite rude you think I am doing so.
 
Ban-jani said:
You think I’m guilty of sophistry, I think you’re guilty of over-simplicity.

Both are bad, I just think one is worse to identify as now.

Nothing I’ve said is excusing what Communists have done. It’s quite rude you think I am doing so.
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I'm sorry if you think it's rude, though I note with some amusement that believing two vicious genocidal political systems are equally bad is now being simplistic. But if you persist in attempting to create a moral difference between the two, as you keep doing, then I am going to keep calling it out. Communism didn't just kill those 100 million, it is specifically and inherently going to kill those kinds of numbers by virtue of what it stands for. To try to claim Nazism is worse is utterly bizarre, it is quite literally choosing between justifications for murder.
 
Henkeman said:
I'm sorry if you think it's rude, though I note with some amusement that believing two vicious genocidal political systems are equally bad is now being simplistic. But if you persist in attempting to create a moral difference between the two, as you keep doing, then I am going to keep calling it out. Communism didn't just kill those 100 million, it is specifically and inherently going to kill those kinds of numbers by virtue of what it stands for. To try to claim Nazism is worse is utterly bizarre, it is quite literally choosing between justifications for murder.
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Your whole argument misses the entire point of why people support the ideologies.

I’m not arguing the damage both have done, both resulted in horrific atrocities, it’s why I dislike both very much, I’m arguing that it’s morally worse to support Nazism than Communism.
 
Ban-jani said:
Your whole argument misses the entire point of why people support the ideologies.

I’m not arguing the damage both have done, both resulted in horrific atrocities, it’s why I dislike both very much, I’m arguing that it’s morally worse to support Nazism than Communism.
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I know what you're arguing, and I'm saying I find it morally repulsive to suggest that Communism is less inherently evil than Nazism. Both advocate mass murder as integral elements of their philosophies. Both. Not one, not a side effect, they both specifically call for it. You are trying to claim it is less morally disgusting to support communism, and I'm not accepting that for a second. A non-violent communist is no different to a non-violent Nazi - a liar.
 
Henkeman said:
I know what you're arguing, and I'm saying I find it morally repulsive to suggest that Communism is less inherently evil than Nazism. Both advocate mass murder as integral elements of their philosophies. Both. Not one, not a side effect, they both specifically call for it. You are trying to claim it is less morally disgusting to support communism, and I'm not accepting that for a second. A non-violent communist is no different to a non-violent Nazi - a liar.
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Good, I’m glad you understand my position. I don’t find it morally repulsive at all, in fact I find it totally logical to come to the conclusion of mass murders being objectively distinguishable.

Are we going to rap this debate up? I think we must agree to disagree.

We bit agree on the point of both being very wrong but I just think one is worse.
 
Ban-jani said:
Good, I’m glad you understand my position. I don’t find it morally repulsive at all, in fact I find it totally logical to come to the conclusion of mass murders being objectively distinguishable.

Are we going to rap this debate up? I think we must agree to disagree.

We bit agree on the point of both being very wrong but I just think one is worse.
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Sure, and I think moral relativism when both prescribe mass murder and proscribe liberty and human rights to be downright weird. But hey, that's just me. Weirdly opposing the deaths of tens of millions whoever does it. I'm an outlier, obvs.
 
Henkeman said:
Sure, and I think moral relativism when both prescribe mass murder and proscribe liberty and human rights to be downright weird. But hey, that's just me. Weirdly opposing the deaths of tens of millions whoever does it. I'm an outlier, obvs.
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I also oppose such things, and always will do. I hate Communism and will always will.

You’ve got zero chance of me apologising for the opinion that many people get into Communist thinking for genuinely decent intentions though.
 
Henkeman said:
I know what you're arguing, and I'm saying I find it morally repulsive to suggest that Communism is less inherently evil than Nazism. Both advocate mass murder as integral elements of their philosophies. Both. Not one, not a side effect, they both specifically call for it. You are trying to claim it is less morally disgusting to support communism, and I'm not accepting that for a second. A non-violent communist is no different to a non-violent Nazi - a liar.
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It is telling that the communist party of Britain doesn't intend to field any candidates and intends to support Corbyn.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...orbyn-labour-support-first-1920-a7699761.html

Then, as is well known, the deputy leader is a declared Marxist.
 
hilts said:
Not really I’m not an expert on the origins and ideology of communism and by the looks of it neither are you. A bit like Theresa sometimes it’s probably best to just hold your hands up and say fuck it I’m wrong on this one.
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I’m not arguing for the origins of Communism, if you’d use your brain properly and read all of my posts.

My argument is that Communism is less morally wrong to support than Nazism.
 
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