God

BulgarianPride said:
Matty said:
Err, no. Until it is found we simply can't explain how, specifically, gravity works. Just because, at this present time, we have no concrete scientific explanation for something doesn't mean "a magic man did it".

There have been hundreds of scientific discoveries over the centuries. As man's intelligence has increased we have discovered more and more. To argue that up to the exact date we discovered how something worked it was "made by God" is, quite frankly, imbecilic.

Who saying God is a magic man? God is an entity/concept used to explain the unknown. Until we know everything there is to know about the universe ( it will never happen), God will always play a role. That is why God is always associated with the after life. Nobody knows what happens when we die. Its one of the biggest unknowns. Sure your body dies, but what if a soul (energy) exists? What happens to it?


The only afterlife is your atoms will go into a million and one other things....this we know.....heaven is just a hopeful wish with no evidence whatsoever

when you go it will just be like before you were born
 
BulgarianPride said:
Matty said:
Bollocks.

You have no proof of this statement whatsoever.

So, by your rational, before Newton "discovered" gravity God was responsible for it. After he discovered gravity God was no longer responsible then I assume? So, by your own rules, God is only responsible for things until we become intelligent enough to realise he isn't.

newton did not discover gravity. Nobody discovered gravity. To this day nobody knows how gravity functions. We can model it, but we don't know what causes it. Scientist are looking for a particle called graviton, untill its found, God made mass to have gravity.
Gravity is one of the biggest mystery in science.

Errrr.....you're sort of correct. To say that gravity and it's causes are a complete mystery is false. The thing that we struggle with, is a universal law for gravity. We understand how it works at the micro level and we understand how it works at the macro level, but these two systems are missing a common bond between them.
Within the last couple of months, there has been a HUGE deal made out of a paper studying a model called the the Horava effect that some people are claiming will see the end of the debate, mainly because it alters Einstein's theory on spacetime as it splits space and time into two separate entities (kinda).

It's quite hard to explain without going into all of the maths and physics involved, but I'll have a try.

One of the big things that Einstein's special theory of relativity states, is that time is experienced differently for things moving at different speeds. For example, there is a well known example of this called the twin paradox. Two brothers called Peter and Paul are twins who were born at the same moment on January 1st 1970. Peter is an astronaut whilst Paul is a mechanic. On January 1st, 2000 (their 30th birthday), Peter launches off into space in a spaceship on a mission to orbit the solar system whilst Paul goes to work normally in his garage. Now, this is the confusing bit, as Peter and his spaceship speed up to near the speed of light, they experience time slower than Paul does. As he has now done an orbit of the solar system and has now crashed down onto Earth, Peter will be looking at his clock and one year would have passed since he set off making him 31. However, when he meets Paul, he finds that as the Earth was travelling ,much slower than the spaceship, time has being experienced more and Paul is actually 51. From Paul's slow speed perspective, Peter has being gone for 21 years, whilst for the fast moving Peter, he has only being gone for 1 year.

This is what relativity is. The idea that as you speed up, the effects of time slow down for you and vice versa, thus any two things who are moving at the same speed will experience time in the same way. We call this "frames of reference". We are all currently moving at around the same speed on Earth, so we are all in the Earth's "frame of reference". Peter went out in his spaceship and travelled at a far, far greater speed thus Peter, his clock and everything else on that spaceship is in their own "frame of reference".

The reason why this realisation is such a huge step forward, is because we used to believe (thanks to Newton) that time was a universal thing just ticking away in the background. In Newton's world, 1 second passed here would mean that 1 second passed on Mars. A tick is a tick.
Einstein's theory of relativity successfully shown that time is actually another dimension which can also be changed just like the others. We live in a world of three dimensions; length, width, and height. We can change these things by exerting forces on an object, such as shaping Playdoh by pressing on it. Einstein shows that we could also change the fourth dimension of time by accelerating, and that it wasn't some static beast in the background but an ever living part of the universe around us. Remember this bit as it's important for later: Einstein put space and time together as similar types of dimensions, which we usually refer to as spacetime. The scientific explanation for this, is that space and time are woven together, so acceleration makes things heavier, and makes them warp spacetime more. Just like putting a basketball in the middle of a trampoline (where the trampoline fabric is space, and a basketball is, say, a planet).

[bigimg]http://ideonexus.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/spacetimecurvature.png[/bigimg]
In the image above, the 'grid' is spacetime; space and time woven together.

Anyway, this leads to something called Lorentz symmetry. Lorentz symmetry is a law that states that any two objects (for example a clock and a person who are both in a spaceship) in the same frame of reference will observe the laws of physics in the same manner. To be more accurate, two objects in the same frame of reference in a non-accelerating or uniform motion, will observe the laws in the same way. It doesn't matter how quick you are going, as long as the other thing observing it is at the same speed as you, you will see them in the same way.

One of our problems, is that in our frame of reference (the Earth) we observe the laws of gravity in a different way in the planets and stars as we do in the sub-atomic world of protons and neutrons. If Lorenz Symmetry is correct (and there's huge evidence that it is) then this shouldn't happen. For example, one of the best known laws in physics and the simplest is that of the universal constant of c. c is the name given to the speed of light inside a vacuum (or space), and nothing can possibly travel faster than this. Every particle in the universe has what we call a limiting or maximum speed, and none of those may be higher than that speed of light. This is because light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, and the speed of at which this travels is 'set in stone' (inside a vacuum).

A good example could be of a proton. Let's say that a proton's maximum speed is higher than that of the speed of light (or electromagnetic radiation (EMR)). The proton would actually lose energy to the point whereby it would be impossible to go faster than EMR, as observed by two objects in the same frame of reference.

Now, the sub-atomic or quantum world didn't match our expectations with the way that gravity works within it. Due to this, physicists have been twatting out ideas left, right and centre. Many believe it is because there is an external force at work that we haven't measured that we need to account for. This is where various pop physics theories come into play, such as Dark Matter, Dark Energy, String Theory, M-Theory, etc that have all offered (sometimes two bit) explanations of this and try to unify the actions of gravity normally and quantum gravity.
The problem, quite honestly, is that if you try to measure the force between two objects as a quantum graviton (in the same frame of reference), all of the calcuations quickly reach infinity, which is obviously wrong.

Horava has come up with a new idea which is currently gaining steam in the community. This idea states that space and time are NOT equal parts of one another in high energy environments such as the Big Bang, but 'weave together' once things settle down. I suppose it's like a bunch of needles in a haystack. At low energies (such as the normal magnetism created by the Earth), these objects are impossibly woven together yet in high energy environments (such as a room with a very strong magnetic ceiling) these things are completely separate. If you introduce a tiny bit of magnetism, you might see the needles move a bit.

Once you use Horava's model to calculate things, all of those nasty infinities go away and you are left with a perfectly normal graviton at the quantum level. This also means that Dark Matter and the like as redundant and no longer needed. This also explains why the Universe is speeding up, rather than slowing down. All of these little foibles in physics are about to go away, if this can be proven as correct.
Unfortunately, as Horava gravity is brand new, the model isn't perfect yet. Whilst it has been modelled against things that were attributed to Dark Energy, and has potentially solved the problem of the expanding Universe, and has potentially solved the problem of gravity acting different in the quantum world, it has been shown to not work in some cases. For example, all of the calculations which call the Sun a perfect sphere, Horava gravity produces perfect results, but if we call the Sun a non-perfect sphere (which it isn't) then the calculations are wildly different from what we observe.

As I have said, it's a brand new model that needs to be refined, but it is by far the most promising one for a hell of a long time.

So in conclusion, yes, gravity is a bit of a mystery at times, but to say we don't know how it works is wrong, and saying that the bits that we don't understand is God is incredibly frustrating and helps absolutely no-one. If everybody thought like you, scientific progress would sotp tomorrow. I hope you remember that tonight as you sit in your house powered by electric, watching your TV beamed from a geo-synchronous satellite, while eating your tea cooked in the microwave.
 
god certainly does not exist

it's a case of being scared of your own mortality. it's a healthy fear of course, but manifests itself differently in different people

most religions started as a way to rip off the gullible - and to be fair, continues to this very day

'brand' god is big business.
 
BulgarianPride said:
ElanJo said:
Wow... ( You must see the glaring problem there )


BTW, can you define God please?

What? You really don't understand me?

I give you a box, that I've put pieces of gold in it and tell you its empty. For some reason you never open the box. After a few weeks of you having this box, i leave and never see you again. To YOU it's just a box with nothing inside it. The gold does not EXIST, from YOUR point of view. It is there but unless you open the box, it will NEVER EXISTS, again from YOUR point of view. So it's like the gold never existed, isn't? Only i know of the gold. If i forget of it, it is like the gold no longer existed.

God: an entity that is responsible for everything that science can't answer.

It's difficult to understand a contradiction (see the two quotes I posted).

I am unaware of the gold but it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It does exist. So, yes, it is LIKE the gold never existed, from MY point of view, but it DOES exist. Its existence is objective not subjective.

And getting back to the universe. You said: "If we were never alive we would of never known about the existence of the universe therefore it did not exist."

It existed before life originated - obviously - its just that we weren't around to make the statement "the universe exists". So what???
 
Damocles said:
BulgarianPride said:
newton did not discover gravity. Nobody discovered gravity. To this day nobody knows how gravity functions. We can model it, but we don't know what causes it. Scientist are looking for a particle called graviton, untill its found, God made mass to have gravity.
Gravity is one of the biggest mystery in science.

Errrr.....you're sort of correct. To say that gravity and it's causes are a complete mystery is false. The thing that we struggle with, is a universal law for gravity. We understand how it works at the micro level and we understand how it works at the macro level, but these two systems are missing a common bond between them.
Within the last couple of months, there has been a HUGE deal made out of a paper studying a model called the the Horava effect that some people are claiming will see the end of the debate, mainly because it alters Einstein's theory on spacetime as it splits space and time into two separate entities (kinda).

It's quite hard to explain without going into all of the maths and physics involved, but I'll have a try.

One of the big things that Einstein's special theory of relativity states, is that time is experienced differently for things moving at different speeds. For example, there is a well known example of this called the twin paradox. Two brothers called Peter and Paul are twins who were born at the same moment on January 1st 1970. Peter is an astronaut whilst Paul is a mechanic. On January 1st, 2000 (their 30th birthday), Peter launches off into space in a spaceship on a mission to orbit the solar system whilst Paul goes to work normally in his garage. Now, this is the confusing bit, as Peter and his spaceship speed up to near the speed of light, they experience time slower than Paul does. As he has now done an orbit of the solar system and has now crashed down onto Earth, Peter will be looking at his clock and one year would have passed since he set off making him 31. However, when he meets Paul, he finds that as the Earth was travelling ,much slower than the spaceship, time has being experienced more and Paul is actually 51. From Paul's slow speed perspective, Peter has being gone for 21 years, whilst for the fast moving Peter, he has only being gone for 1 year.

This is what relativity is. The idea that as you speed up, the effects of time slow down for you and vice versa, thus any two things who are moving at the same speed will experience time in the same way. We call this "frames of reference". We are all currently moving at around the same speed on Earth, so we are all in the Earth's "frame of reference". Peter went out in his spaceship and travelled at a far, far greater speed thus Peter, his clock and everything else on that spaceship is in their own "frame of reference".

The reason why this realisation is such a huge step forward, is because we used to believe (thanks to Newton) that time was a universal thing just ticking away in the background. In Newton's world, 1 second passed here would mean that 1 second passed on Mars. A tick is a tick.
Einstein's theory of relativity successfully shown that time is actually another dimension which can also be changed just like the others. We live in a world of three dimensions; length, width, and height. We can change these things by exerting forces on an object, such as shaping Playdoh by pressing on it. Einstein shows that we could also change the fourth dimension of time by accelerating, and that it wasn't some static beast in the background but an ever living part of the universe around us. Remember this bit as it's important for later: Einstein put space and time together as similar types of dimensions, which we usually refer to as spacetime. The scientific explanation for this, is that space and time are woven together, so acceleration makes things heavier, and makes them warp spacetime more. Just like putting a basketball in the middle of a trampoline (where the trampoline fabric is space, and a basketball is, say, a planet).

[bigimg]http://ideonexus.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/spacetimecurvature.png[/bigimg]
In the image above, the 'grid' is spacetime; space and time woven together.

Anyway, this leads to something called Lorentz symmetry. Lorentz symmetry is a law that states that any two objects (for example a clock and a person who are both in a spaceship) in the same frame of reference will observe the laws of physics in the same manner. To be more accurate, two objects in the same frame of reference in a non-accelerating or uniform motion, will observe the laws in the same way. It doesn't matter how quick you are going, as long as the other thing observing it is at the same speed as you, you will see them in the same way.

One of our problems, is that in our frame of reference (the Earth) we observe the laws of gravity in a different way in the planets and stars as we do in the sub-atomic world of protons and neutrons. If Lorenz Symmetry is correct (and there's huge evidence that it is) then this shouldn't happen. For example, one of the best known laws in physics and the simplest is that of the universal constant of c. c is the name given to the speed of light inside a vacuum (or space), and nothing can possibly travel faster than this. Every particle in the universe has what we call a limiting or maximum speed, and none of those may be higher than that speed of light. This is because light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, and the speed of at which this travels is 'set in stone' (inside a vacuum).

A good example could be of a proton. Let's say that a proton's maximum speed is higher than that of the speed of light (or electromagnetic radiation (EMR)). The proton would actually lose energy to the point whereby it would be impossible to go faster than EMR, as observed by two objects in the same frame of reference.

Now, the sub-atomic or quantum world didn't match our expectations with the way that gravity works within it. Due to this, physicists have been twatting out ideas left, right and centre. Many believe it is because there is an external force at work that we haven't measured that we need to account for. This is where various pop physics theories come into play, such as Dark Matter, Dark Energy, String Theory, M-Theory, etc that have all offered (sometimes two bit) explanations of this and try to unify the actions of gravity normally and quantum gravity.
The problem, quite honestly, is that if you try to measure the force between two objects as a quantum graviton (in the same frame of reference), all of the calcuations quickly reach infinity, which is obviously wrong.

Horava has come up with a new idea which is currently gaining steam in the community. This idea states that space and time are NOT equal parts of one another in high energy environments such as the Big Bang, but 'weave together' once things settle down. I suppose it's like a bunch of needles in a haystack. At low energies (such as the normal magnetism created by the Earth), these objects are impossibly woven together yet in high energy environments (such as a room with a very strong magnetic ceiling) these things are completely separate. If you introduce a tiny bit of magnetism, you might see the needles move a bit.

Once you use Horava's model to calculate things, all of those nasty infinities go away and you are left with a perfectly normal graviton at the quantum level. This also means that Dark Matter and the like as redundant and no longer needed. This also explains why the Universe is speeding up, rather than slowing down. All of these little foibles in physics are about to go away, if this can be proven as correct.
Unfortunately, as Horava gravity is brand new, the model isn't perfect yet. Whilst it has been modelled against things that were attributed to Dark Energy, and has potentially solved the problem of the expanding Universe, and has potentially solved the problem of gravity acting different in the quantum world, it has been shown to not work in some cases. For example, all of the calculations which call the Sun a perfect sphere, Horava gravity produces perfect results, but if we call the Sun a non-perfect sphere (which it isn't) then the calculations are wildly different from what we observe.

As I have said, it's a brand new model that needs to be refined, but it is by far the most promising one for a hell of a long time.

So in conclusion, yes, gravity is a bit of a mystery at times, but to say we don't know how it works is wrong, and saying that the bits that we don't understand is God is incredibly frustrating and helps absolutely no-one.
If everybody thought like you, scientific progress would sotp tomorrow. I hope you remember that tonight as you sit in your house powered by electric, watching your TV beamed from a geo-synchronous satellite, while eating your tea cooked in the microwave.

That last bit is an insult to my intelligence. Soon i will be the one making microwaves/satellites/TV/computers/anything that has microelectronics ( 1 more year left of uni and i off to destroying the scientific community...)

I haven't studied any theoretical physics so can't really comment on that Horava model. It all sound interesting. Only thing is what happens to the universe when it reaches the speed of light? If it is accelerating, it must one day reach its limit or stop accelerating. What happens then. End of the universe?

Can you provide links/books to read over when i got time?

One more question if you accelerate so fast, can you break through the spacetime fabric?

And for the sake of argument, what makes up the spacetime fabric? Any physical evidence that it exists?

Ahh, this is to much. One more question. Are we moving with the expansion of the universe or is it like a balloon inflating itself and we are just floating inside the balloon?

Only advanced physics i am familiar with is Electromagnetism and Electromagnetic waves...
 
Jimma said:
For every argument, there is a counter argument.

For every "God debunkle" there is creationist scientist who debunks the debunkle.

Atheism V Christianity (or religion) you have two great arguments, that if you actually argue, will go around in circles for eternity, no one will change their mind and you get two very angry people at the end of it.

I've always been a cynic of religion. had the 'if i cant see it it doesnt exist' kind of thinking.
but i became a Christian a few years ago after a lot of reading.

I'm not going to reply to every point you've made, tho I'd be happy to do so, because you've made it clear that you don't want to get into a long debate so, with that in mind, I'll just ask you to answer the following couple of questions:

1. Can you give me what you think is the single most compelling argument for creationism?

2. What argument/s convinced you to become a Christian? (you can give me the single most compelling one if you would prefer)

3. Also, please can you define God? (eg. usually it's all-powerful etc.)

Cheers
 
As regards defining God:

The unifying force. The connectedness of everything. The thing that is left when all noise and questions stop - an appreciation/realisation of oneness and completeness that the lattice of definition cannot really hold. To define God is to reduce God. Define perfect according to it's constituent parts? I think not EJ. Your question is rooted in what philosophers might term a category mistake.

But anyway, I've had a stab at it for you.
 
BulgarianPride said:
That last bit is an insult to my intelligence. Soon i will be the one making microwaves/satellites/TV/computers/anything that has microelectronics ( 1 more year left of uni and i off to destroying the scientific community...)

Ah good. So, if you're now making microelectronics, surely you are familiar with the workings of a resistor. Your point about gravity not making perfect sense is exactly the same as saying that "we don't fully understand electrical resistance, therefore God does it". (I'm not actually saying that we don't know how resistance works)

I haven't studied any theoretical physics so can't really comment on that Horava model. It all sound interesting. Only thing is what happens to the universe when it reaches the speed of light? If it is accelerating, it must one day reach its limit or stop accelerating. What happens then. End of the universe?

Well, something called the Big Rip will eventually happen if predictions are correct, where the elementary bonds between particles themselves will be torn apart by the expansion.

Can you provide links/books to read over when i got time?

One more question if you accelerate so fast, can you break through the spacetime fabric?

This is what the Big Rip essentially is.

As far as books are concerned, a Brief History of Time is a good starting point for someone with a background in maths like yourself.

And for the sake of argument, what makes up the spacetime fabric? Any physical evidence that it exists?

Ahh, this is to much. One more question. Are we moving with the expansion of the universe or is it like a balloon inflating itself and we are just floating inside the balloon?

It's the balloon with us on the outside of it as far as we can tell. There's a fundamental rule of physics that the Earth is not in a special place in the Universe and every other planet you view the sky from will look the same.

EDIT:

The space time fabric is made up of space and time woven together. The evidence of space existing, is that there are three dimensions around you, the evidence of time existing is that you are aging. The evidence of spacetime existing I dealt with before in the Earth/basketball comparison.
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.