God

[Fame Monster]

Atheists are as bad as theists.

The right answer to the question "does God exist?" is "I don't know". In a rational world, a belief system is the prettier sibling of escapism.

You would think that atheists, with their worship of science, would understand that you can't complete a jigsaw with hardly any of the pieces.

At least theists don't pretend to be rational.

Atheism meaning that you believe there is no God.

Ah, I see you've found a way to feel superior to both of them.

Yep.

 

[BulgarianPride]

But then he is responsible for gravity... He designed the rules / formulas that everything in this universe has to obey, and if we never find the Unified field theory then wouldn't that be direct proof of god? He couldn't himself make it as one, so he creates two systems. One of the very large, one of the very small with different types of governing equations.

But if everything is unified then that would also be proof of god?
And if god did create this universe who then created him. This is all one big circle. there will always be questions that is why nobody can ever say god exists or does not. That why you believe or you don't.

No, absolutely not.

If we never find a theory unifying the quantum world and the normal world, it's absolutely no proof at all, let alone direct proof, that God exists. All it means is that we have failed to understand it. This is proof of nothing apart from that we failed to understand it.

I cannot say this enough times. Even if all of the science that we have so far discovered turns out to be wrong, it is NOT any sort of proof of a God, all it is, is proof that we have misunderstood things. Considering that you are an engineer, I would have thought that basic cause-effect logic should be well within your grasp.

Personally, as I have said, I don't BELIEVE that any sort of a God exists, but I cannot say with any sort of certainty. There are currently holes in human understanding. It is possible that God could come into our understanding within these holes, but I find it extremely unlikely. However, as with everything, I'll examine the evidence when I see it then make an informed opinion upon the subject.

Any other position than the above is anti-scientific and those who are saying that God definitely does not exist are not living by the rigorous scientific standards that they claim to be. There is no proof of God existing. There didn't used to be proof of a heliocentric solar system. Saying that something will never happen means that you close off your mind to possibilities and you look at evidence in a skewed manner.
This is why Buzzer was so important to this forum, and I would very much enjoy it if he returned. He didn't just sit there expounded views; he showed you the evidence that convinced him for you to make your own decision. People like this should be celebrated.
You however, are the complete opposite. You're whole vein of evidence is basically "well, if we don't understand it, then God must have done it". You are using God as the default cause, which is wrong. Misunderstanding is the default cause, every piece of knowledge that we gain through widespread, peer reviewed evidence adds to our understanding of a subject.
God is just as likely as aliens, which is just as likely as a fridge magnet creating the universe. I refuse to rule out any of them until we figure out the exact cause of creation.

No, that is not me.
If something does not work, you redesign it to make it work. It is science. But if we do actually understand everything ( assuming we get to point where our physics is 100% correct) then if a god did exists he must show up somewhere or not.

My definition of god was put out very fast, maybe without any thought behind it ( clearly no thought ). I don't actually think god is responsible for gravity or anything else unknown, but it can be viewed like that, since he is the creator( might be...). I do think he is responsible for the creation of the universe. Only thing that does not make sense to me at least, is if a god does exist, who created him? Only explanation to this is that god himself is the whole universe.
My scientific knowledge and reasoning conflicts with my believes, but in "real/professional" life, my believes don't win too much, almost never. But my believes allow me feel better, to feel a little bit less insignificant. I do it for the piece of mind.

If the universe accelerates so fast that it rips apart, what happens to the energy? Were are taught one of the most fundamental laws of physic. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed and the total energy of the universe is constant, created at the big bang. But if the universe is accelerating, something needs to constantly be fueling it. Is this where the dark energy comes into account?

We think dark energy exists, one of our models of the universe demands it to work, so why is it so hard to think that a soul exists or even a god?

God damn magnets. I knew there was more to them.

Why did Buzzer leave?

 

[Damocles]

No, absolutely not.

If we never find a theory unifying the quantum world and the normal world, it's absolutely no proof at all, let alone direct proof, that God exists. All it means is that we have failed to understand it. This is proof of nothing apart from that we failed to understand it.

I cannot say this enough times. Even if all of the science that we have so far discovered turns out to be wrong, it is NOT any sort of proof of a God, all it is, is proof that we have misunderstood things. Considering that you are an engineer, I would have thought that basic cause-effect logic should be well within your grasp.

Personally, as I have said, I don't BELIEVE that any sort of a God exists, but I cannot say with any sort of certainty. There are currently holes in human understanding. It is possible that God could come into our understanding within these holes, but I find it extremely unlikely. However, as with everything, I'll examine the evidence when I see it then make an informed opinion upon the subject.

Any other position than the above is anti-scientific and those who are saying that God definitely does not exist are not living by the rigorous scientific standards that they claim to be. There is no proof of God existing. There didn't used to be proof of a heliocentric solar system. Saying that something will never happen means that you close off your mind to possibilities and you look at evidence in a skewed manner.
This is why Buzzer was so important to this forum, and I would very much enjoy it if he returned. He didn't just sit there expounded views; he showed you the evidence that convinced him for you to make your own decision. People like this should be celebrated.
You however, are the complete opposite. You're whole vein of evidence is basically "well, if we don't understand it, then God must have done it". You are using God as the default cause, which is wrong. Misunderstanding is the default cause, every piece of knowledge that we gain through widespread, peer reviewed evidence adds to our understanding of a subject.
God is just as likely as aliens, which is just as likely as a fridge magnet creating the universe. I refuse to rule out any of them until we figure out the exact cause of creation.

No, that is not me.
If something does not work, you redesign it to make it work. It is science. But if we do actually understand everything ( assuming we get to point where our physics is 100% correct) then if a god did exists he must show up somewhere or not.

My definition of god was put out very fast, maybe without any thought behind it ( clearly no thought ). I don't actually think god is responsible for gravity or anything else unknown, but it can be viewed like that, since he is the creator( might be...). I do think he is responsible for the creation of the universe. Only thing that does not make sense to me at least, is if a god does exist, who created him? Only explanation to this is that god himself is the whole universe.
My scientific knowledge and reasoning conflicts with my believes, but in "real/professional" life, my believes don't win too much, almost never. But my believes allow me feel better, to feel a little bit less insignificant. I do it for the piece of mind.

If the universe accelerates so fast that it rips apart, what happens to the energy? Were are taught one of the most fundamental laws of physic. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed and the total energy of the universe is constant, created at the big bang. But if the universe is accelerating, something needs to constantly be fueling it. Is this where the dark energy comes into account?

We think dark energy exists, one of our models of the universe demands it to work, so why is it so hard to think that a soul exists or even a god?

God damn magnets. I knew there was more to them.

Why did Buzzer leave?

That's all fair enough about God.

You are a little confused on the physics of energy. What you are talking about, is the standard laws of the conservation of energy in an isolated system. That bolded bit at the end is important, and if you can prove that the Universe is an isolated system, there'll be a Nobel in it for you.

Anyway, special relativity predicts that energy during the Big Rip will be transferred into other forms, such as kinetic energy or even EMR but to be honest, the laws of physics break down at these sort of events, so it's pretty much guesswork.

EDIT: Just to make something clear here. Pretty much all physics presumes that the universe is indeed the only example of a perfect isolated system. That said, we only think that because it's convenient and we have no evidence to the contrary, hence the comment above.

 

[BulgarianPride]

No, that is not me.
If something does not work, you redesign it to make it work. It is science. But if we do actually understand everything ( assuming we get to point where our physics is 100% correct) then if a god did exists he must show up somewhere or not.

My definition of god was put out very fast, maybe without any thought behind it ( clearly no thought ). I don't actually think god is responsible for gravity or anything else unknown, but it can be viewed like that, since he is the creator( might be...). I do think he is responsible for the creation of the universe. Only thing that does not make sense to me at least, is if a god does exist, who created him? Only explanation to this is that god himself is the whole universe.
My scientific knowledge and reasoning conflicts with my believes, but in "real/professional" life, my believes don't win too much, almost never. But my believes allow me feel better, to feel a little bit less insignificant. I do it for the piece of mind.

If the universe accelerates so fast that it rips apart, what happens to the energy? Were are taught one of the most fundamental laws of physic. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transformed and the total energy of the universe is constant, created at the big bang. But if the universe is accelerating, something needs to constantly be fueling it. Is this where the dark energy comes into account?

We think dark energy exists, one of our models of the universe demands it to work, so why is it so hard to think that a soul exists or even a god?

God damn magnets. I knew there was more to them.

Why did Buzzer leave?

That's all fair enough about God.

You are a little confused on the physics of energy. What you are talking about, is the standard laws of the conservation of energy in an isolated system. That bolded bit at the end is important, and if you can prove that the Universe is an isolated system, there'll be a Nobel in it for you.

Anyway, special relativity predicts that energy during the Big Rip will be transferred into other forms, such as kinetic energy or even EMR but to be honest, the laws of physics break down at these sort of events, so it's pretty much guesswork.

Yes but the definition of an isolate system is that it does not interact with its "surrounding". The universe is everything, by definition, so nothing can externally interact with the universe. If we assume nothing exists outside our universe, then it is an isolated system. Until someone proves that something exists outside the universe, i think it is a valid assumption( universe is an isolated system) .

If the energy contained in the universe can't "leak" to another place, then it must be conserved.

Edit: Sorry did not see your edit when i replied. Doesn't change my reply though. I don't see why an assumption needs to be proved, if anything a perfectly valid assumption holds until someone proves that it is incorrect.

 

[tonea2003]

a bit off the topic but related in a way
couple of big bang universe type questions for you damocles or anyone else for that matter
and what is your take on them

1, you mention milliseconds after the big bang and tremendous energy
where does that energy come from and what created it.
and you could go saying what created that and so on and so on
where do you stop?

2, the universe, do you think it has a limit i.e. an edge and if so whats
on the other side? or do we go the infinity route

 

[Ally.P]

But then he is responsible for gravity... He designed the rules / formulas that everything in this universe has to obey, and if we never find the Unified field theory then wouldn't that be direct proof of god? He couldn't himself make it as one, so he creates two systems. One of the very large, one of the very small with different types of governing equations.

But if everything is unified then that would also be proof of god?
And if god did create this universe who then created him. This is all one big circle. there will always be questions that is why nobody can ever say god exists or does not. That why you believe or you don't.

No, absolutely not.

If we never find a theory unifying the quantum world and the normal world, it's absolutely no proof at all, let alone direct proof, that God exists. All it means is that we have failed to understand it. This is proof of nothing apart from that we failed to understand it.

I cannot say this enough times. Even if all of the science that we have so far discovered turns out to be wrong, it is NOT any sort of proof of a God, all it is, is proof that we have misunderstood things. Considering that you are an engineer, I would have thought that basic cause-effect logic should be well within your grasp.

Personally, as I have said, I don't BELIEVE that any sort of a God exists, but I cannot say with any sort of certainty. There are currently holes in human understanding. It is possible that God could come into our understanding within these holes, but I find it extremely unlikely. However, as with everything, I'll examine the evidence when I see it then make an informed opinion upon the subject.

Any other position than the above is anti-scientific and those who are saying that God definitely does not exist are not living by the rigorous scientific standards that they claim to be. There is no proof of God existing. There didn't used to be proof of a heliocentric solar system. Saying that something will never happen means that you close off your mind to possibilities and you look at evidence in a skewed manner.
This is why Buzzer was so important to this forum, and I would very much enjoy it if he returned. He didn't just sit there expounded views; he showed you the evidence that convinced him for you to make your own decision. People like this should be celebrated.
You however, are the complete opposite. You're whole vein of evidence is basically "well, if we don't understand it, then God must have done it". You are using God as the default cause, which is wrong. Misunderstanding is the default cause, every piece of knowledge that we gain through widespread, peer reviewed evidence adds to our understanding of a subject.
God is just as likely as aliens, which is just as likely as a fridge magnet creating the universe. I refuse to rule out any of them until we figure out the exact cause of creation.

Can I believe in Creationism and Evolution at the same time please?

Because I do.

You can believe whatever you feel necessary, just don't expect it to be correct. I'm sorry to say that Creationism in the sense that God created the Earth directly has been entirely disproven, and if you'd like, I could explain from a couple of milliseconds after the Big Bang to how we got here today. It's a large sequence of events that focus around stars, gravity and luck. However, if by Creationism you mean that God created the Big Bang then left it alone to run by the laws that God set, nobody can touch you scientifically.

You shouldn't believe in Evolution. Evolution has as much evidence behind it as, say, the Earth orbiting the Sun does. It's a commonly known, widely accepted theory.
One of the problems with the Creationist movement, is it's complete misunderstanding of what a scientific theory actually is. It isn't a theory in the sense of "I have a theory that City will beat Spurs". That's what we call a hypothesis. A theory scientifically is something that has being tested, over and over, has masses of evidence behind it, has been peer reviewed by hundreds and thousands of scientists all over the world, all doing their own experiments in double blind conditions and replicating the same results.

Evolution and Creationism aren't natural bedfellows. It could be said that the planets and stars themselves have undergone a sort of evolutionary development from Type 1 stars through to Type 3 stars. The whole point of evolution is a simple one, things that work better have a better chance of surviving than things that don't work as well. Over time, the ones that survive will breed until the ones that don't die out. That's what all of the fuss is about. The Universe in it's early state was full of heavy metalled, Type 1 stars. These stars were burning hot, yet incredibly unstable, thus exploded a lot and created many of the elements in the periodic table through moving around the insides of some atoms due to the sheer forces involved. No life could be supported in this environment as we currently know it. Over time, our Sun type of star developed, and rubble from other explosions gravitationally attracted one another whilst sweeping (orbiting) round the new Sun. This is where the planets come from, the rotation of which is one of the reasons why nearly all of them are pretty spherical.

This isn't just hyperbole either, we can actually prove this by the dating of asteroids, and by direct observation of other systems in a similar phase. As I say, it depends on what you mean by "Creationism".

All this is quite confusing :-s I am afraid I can only write simply.

But in that God caused the Big Bang, yes, and the subsequent development of the universe, and consequently our earth, through evolution or whatever (though arent there some examples of things that scientists say dont follow the natural course of evolution?).

Of course in the Bible this is represented as creation in seven days. This is obviously incorrect in the 'days' that we talk about. But the creation story, like all the first part of the bible say most of Genesis, is not true history.

'The creation story in Genesis 1 and 2 is not about the creation of the world, but it is there to teach us about the spiritual regeneration of people.'

Sorry - I cant do more than that.<br /><br />-- Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:35 am --<br /><br />

Jesus Christ Himself was a manifestation of God, the Divine made flesh to enable humanity to be aware of a unique relationship with God. Prior to His Coming, God had been incomprehensible to humans beyond the capacity of our perception and understanding. Through the birth of Christ, humanity was given an overt expression of God's reality in human terms. Christ is not seen as a separate entity, but as reflective of the multiple consciousness that is the oneness of God. There are not three divine beings comprising the trinity, but one Divine Nature in which the three aspects of God are present. Nor did Christ come to redeem us from original sin. Rather, His mission was that of revealing the nature and reality of the spiritual life, and to provide a living example of it.

This is my 'faith' regarding Jesus.

sorry but its this type of interpretation which turns people off, its bordering on wacko to think a new generation of kids could get excited about such a viewpoint..... but i get it, its your belief and I respect that.

Its not the kind of thing I would just present to a new generation at all but this is an intelligent debate on this thread that can obviously handle religious theology and its language.

 

[Bigga]

my take on this is rather blunt really.

I believe that the bible was created by early man as a set of guideling rules. Its funny how there was AD and BC basically before rule book and after rule book.

That is my take on the bible..

Also... if theres a god.. who created this whole earth, then that means that hes a gready fucker with lots of planets.... or theres 1 god per planet so 1000s of gods...

Ive tryed to make sense of this before but i really cant . i believe that religion is something that ppl lay back on to hide behind when things go to shit or because they cant take the thought that bad shit happens in the world naturally.

WTF??

That's like saying, if you have a canvas to paint on, you're only allowed one spot from the paintbrush. A dab. That's yours and the next dab is someone else's, etc., etc.!

If you have a canvas to create whatever you want, you've created it. You don't have to share it. Just maybe, MAYBE there ARE other 'canvases' (universes/ Gods).

Who knows?

 

[tonea2003]

my take on this is rather blunt really.

I believe that the bible was created by early man as a set of guideling rules. Its funny how there was AD and BC basically before rule book and after rule book.

That is my take on the bible..

Also... if theres a god.. who created this whole earth, then that means that hes a gready fucker with lots of planets.... or theres 1 god per planet so 1000s of gods...

Ive tryed to make sense of this before but i really cant . i believe that religion is something that ppl lay back on to hide behind when things go to shit or because they cant take the thought that bad shit happens in the world naturally.

WTF??

That's like saying, if you have a canvas to paint on, you're only allowed one spot from the paintbrush. A dab. That's yours and the next dab is someone else's, etc., etc.!

If you have a canvas to create whatever you want, you've created it. You don't have to share it. Just maybe, MAYBE there ARE other 'canvases' (universes/ Gods).

Who knows?

c'mon bigga thought you agreed to walk away

Bluecifer wrote:
This is a totally circular argument that will achieve nothing but bad feeling as both parties are convinced they are right. This will cause passions to rise and on-line feuds to be formed.
Save it for the RAGS guys. Agree to disagree and walk away!



I'll agree with that.

 

[Bigga]

Yeah, yeah...

 

[tonea2003]

Yeah, yeah...

hmmmm one to be watched, forked tongue and all that