God

[Bigga]

Yeah, yeah...

hmmmm one to be watched, forked tongue and all that

No.

Actually I've resisted jumping into other points before now, but was just annoying.

I'll try to resist.

 

[Damocles]

All this is quite confusing :-s I am afraid I can only write simply.

But in that God caused the Big Bang, yes, and the subsequent development of the universe, and consequently our earth, through evolution or whatever (though arent there some examples of things that scientists say dont follow the natural course of evolution?).

Scientifically speaking, that's fine. We have no knowledge of what created the Big Bang and if you choose to believe that God caused it then more power to you. It's absolutely no different from the atheistic answer that the Universe came from nothing. We don't know, it could be either of the above, or something completely different.

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

However, stating that God literally created the Earth (and not just made the Big Bang, I mean actually made the Earth by hand) is where many religious folk fall down and abandon their logic.

Of course in the Bible this is represented as creation in seven days. This is obviously incorrect in the 'days' that we talk about. But the creation story, like all the first part of the bible say most of Genesis, is not true history.

'The creation story in Genesis 1 and 2 is not about the creation of the world, but it is there to teach us about the spiritual regeneration of people.'

Sorry - I cant do more than that.

That's all fair enough. Do you also get frustrated with people who take the Bible as the literal word of God?

 

[ElanJo]

All this is quite confusing :-s I am afraid I can only write simply.

But in that God caused the Big Bang, yes, and the subsequent development of the universe, and consequently our earth, through evolution or whatever (though arent there some examples of things that scientists say dont follow the natural course of evolution?).

Scientifically speaking, that's fine. We have no knowledge of what created the Big Bang and if you choose to believe that God caused it then more power to you. It's absolutely no different from the atheistic answer that the Universe came from nothing. We don't know, it could be either of the above, or something completely different.

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

Filling gaps of knowledge with anything the hell you want is not scientific.

And let's be clear for anyone reading this, hardly any atheist at all claims that the universe came from nothing.

(though arent there some examples of things that scientists say dont follow the natural course of evolution?).

No.

Anyway, Ally.P, were you born into your religion or were you convinced of it through some argument? (if the latter, what was this?)

-- Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:18 pm --

You're whole vein of evidence is basically "well, if we don't understand it, then God must have done it".

No, that is not me.
If something does not work, you redesign it to make it work. It is science. But if we do actually understand everything ( assuming we get to point where our physics is 100% correct) then if a god did exists he must show up somewhere or not.

It most certainly is your position. Case in point:

Your whole belief is an argument from ignorance.

... I believe because i fail to explain to myself how we( as the whole of the universe) came to be.
.

--------------

I do think he is responsible for the creation of the universe. Only thing that does not make sense to me at least, is if a god does exist, who created him? Only explanation to this is that god himself is the whole universe.

Did "God" create the universe or is "God" the universe? It can't be both.

 

[BulgarianPride]

Scientifically speaking, that's fine. We have no knowledge of what created the Big Bang and if you choose to believe that God caused it then more power to you. It's absolutely no different from the atheistic answer that the Universe came from nothing. We don't know, it could be either of the above, or something completely different.

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

Filling gaps of knowledge with anything the hell you want is not scientific.

And let's be clear for anyone reading this, hardly any atheist at all claims that the universe came from nothing.

(though arent there some examples of things that scientists say dont follow the natural course of evolution?).

No.

Anyway, Ally.P, were you born into your religion or were you convinced of it through some argument? (if the latter, what was this?)

-- Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:18 pm --

No, that is not me.
If something does not work, you redesign it to make it work. It is science. But if we do actually understand everything ( assuming we get to point where our physics is 100% correct) then if a god did exists he must show up somewhere or not.

It most certainly is your position. Case in point:

... I believe because i fail to explain to myself how we( as the whole of the universe) came to be.
.

--------------

I do think he is responsible for the creation of the universe. Only thing that does not make sense to me at least, is if a god does exist, who created him? Only explanation to this is that god himself is the whole universe.

Did "God" create the universe or is "God" the universe? It can't be both.

If i knew i would of told you a long time ago. Read that bolded thing again. I am telling you that my believe has a "breaking point". A faulty logic, i admit, but it still feels better to believe. I've spend endless nights thinking of a universe full nothing. Absolutely nothing, no light, no matter, no universe. Imagine that, absolutely nothing. This thought scares me, even more than my mortality.

You tell me then how was the universe formed? If you don't believe it was formed out of nothing, how was it formed? Big bang does not cut it. What was it before that?

 

[Damocles]

Scientifically speaking, that's fine. We have no knowledge of what created the Big Bang and if you choose to believe that God caused it then more power to you. It's absolutely no different from the atheistic answer that the Universe came from nothing. We don't know, it could be either of the above, or something completely different.

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

Filling gaps of knowledge with anything the hell you want is not scientific.

And let's be clear for anyone reading this, hardly any atheist at all claims that the universe came from nothing.

Both of these are incorrect.

Firstly, I'm certainly not suggesting that filling gaps of knowledge with anything you like is scientific, and I'm not surprised to see you completely misrepresenting my position like you do with so many others. What I am saying, is that if you believe that the first cause was God, or anything else, then modern science can't touch you as far as disproving or even having an alternative workable theory is concerned.

Secondly, an often repeated first cause used to be "the Universe is infinite" until the Big Bang model came to prominence. Many people now give one of two answers, the truthful one (i.e. "we don't know"), or the ridiculous one that harks back to classical physics ("nothing was before the Big Bang", often analogised as "What's North of the North Pole?"). I hear these quite regularly from theoretical physicists and cosmologists; perhaps we move in different circles.

 

[tonea2003]

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

surely it isn't fine for creationism to claim god as the guy who created the big bang for the very reason it can't be proved.

 

[Ally.P]

Scientifically speaking, that's fine. We have no knowledge of what created the Big Bang and if you choose to believe that God caused it then more power to you. It's absolutely no different from the atheistic answer that the Universe came from nothing. We don't know, it could be either of the above, or something completely different.

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

Filling gaps of knowledge with anything the hell you want is not scientific.

And let's be clear for anyone reading this, hardly any atheist at all claims that the universe came from nothing.

(though arent there some examples of things that scientists say dont follow the natural course of evolution?).

No.

Anyway, Ally.P, were you born into your religion or were you convinced of it through some argument? (if the latter, what was this?)

-- Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:18 pm --

No, that is not me.
If something does not work, you redesign it to make it work. It is science. But if we do actually understand everything ( assuming we get to point where our physics is 100% correct) then if a god did exists he must show up somewhere or not.

It most certainly is your position. Case in point:

... I believe because i fail to explain to myself how we( as the whole of the universe) came to be.
.

--------------

I do think he is responsible for the creation of the universe. Only thing that does not make sense to me at least, is if a god does exist, who created him? Only explanation to this is that god himself is the whole universe.

Did "God" create the universe or is "God" the universe? It can't be both.

I was born for it, baby!! ;-)

Seriously though, i was born into a Swedenborgian family and go to a Swedenborgian church. But I am a grown up, its my choice. Its not forced on me.

 

[Damocles]

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

surely it isn't fine for creationism to claim god as the guy who created the big bang for the very reason it can't be proved.

What exactly is the difference between claiming God did this, and a normal hypothesis? Theories are created because somebody came up with a hypothesis (usually that they believed to be true).

 

[mammutly]

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way.

surely it isn't fine for creationism to claim god as the guy who created the big bang for the very reason it can't be proved.

What exactly is the difference between claiming God did this, and a normal hypothesis? Theories are created because somebody came up with a hypothesis (usually that they believed to be true).

Your ideas about how theories are constructed are both extreme and naive.

That is of course just a theory on my part, but it is based on reliable, or at least observable, evidence.

 

[ElanJo]

Filling gaps of knowledge with anything the hell you want is not scientific.

And let's be clear for anyone reading this, hardly any atheist at all claims that the universe came from nothing.

Both of these are incorrect.

Firstly, I'm certainly not suggesting that filling gaps of knowledge with anything you like is scientific, and I'm not surprised to see you completely misrepresenting my position like you do with so many others. What I am saying, is that if you believe that the first cause was God, or anything else, then modern science can't touch you as far as disproving or even having an alternative workable theory is concerned.

Secondly, an often repeated first cause used to be "the Universe is infinite" until the Big Bang model came to prominence. Many people now give one of two answers, the truthful one (i.e. "we don't know"), or the ridiculous one that harks back to classical physics ("nothing was before the Big Bang", often analogised as "What's North of the North Pole?"). I hear these quite regularly from theoretical physicists and cosmologists; perhaps we move in different circles.

Then you should word things better. I mean, come on, this is pretty woeful:

My point, is that Creationism that places God as the guy who created the Big Bang is absolutely fine simply because nobody can prove or disprove it either way

.
Creationism is a claim and you're saying that this claim is "fine" because a) it can't be proven (WTF?) and b) because it can't be disproven.

And do I misrepresent "so many" of your other arguments or do I misrepresent the arguments of "so many" others? I obviously don't want to misrepresent you here! If the former than, sure, I've jumped the gun on, or simply misunderstood, a couple of your posts in the past but to say "so many" is a wild exaggeration. If the latter, it's just false.. unless you count the process of trying to dicipher the reels of mumbo jumbo from the likes of BulgarianBlue...

As for atheists. Yes, some cosmologists say that asking what was before the big bang is a stupid question, since time didn't exist at all (a rather presumptuous view imo), but most atheists (obviously not all cosmologists are atheists), when asked to explain why/how the universe is here, say "I don't know". Perhaps *I* should have worded my point better - I just wanted to make it clear, to others who may think so, that the choise isn't restricted to either "God did it" or "the universe came from nothing"