God

[chestervegasblue]

Thanks for your response ElanoJo:

Point 1) He also believes in eternal punishment...

This is because God takes our decisions seriously, he respects our choice. If we choose to follow him, then the fruit of our choice is eternal life. If we choose not to follow him, then the fruit of our choice is eternal death. It's spelled out clearly in the Bible, God gives us this choice because he loves us...and part of that love is respect for our free will. If he just let everyone in to heaven, then he does not respect the decisions that we make on earth.


Point 2) and thought crime.

God does not want anything to get in the way of his relationship with us. Sin is conscious movement away from God, and you don't do that without thinking about it...so saying that thinking about sinning is a crime is acknowledging that the thought process is what leads to sin. If you didn't think you wanted to hit someone, you wouldn't do it.

Point 3) How is all-knowing/all-powerful a contradictory mess? If God is the creator of everything, surely he has to be all of these things?

Point 4) I'd be able to sympathise with your Voluntary False Confessions theory if the disciples hadn't all abandoned and denied Jesus before he was crucified. They didn't sacrifice themselves to try to protect Jesus then, they ran. Something must have changed massively to truly convince them that Jesus was worth dying for.


Pont 5)

Anything within 100 years of an event in that period of history is classed as very reliable. There's Flavius Josephus as well, a Jewish historian, who wrote between c.37AD and 100AD.

Also, at the time, the people who are going to record the history are either going to be Jewish, and they didn't like Jesus or think he was the Messiah, or Roman, who had their own Gods and did not like their authority being challenged. There's also the risk of being killed for writing something blasphemous. Why would you risk it if you didn't believe?

Yes I do believe in the resurrection; as for the multiple resurrection of the saints, I believe it is possible (again, I believe God created everything, so I believe that this is possible), but whether this event happened or not I'm unsure, given that this is a Matthean addition; this event does not appear in Mark, Luke or John.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I look to Jesus for my moral teachings. There is nothing that he does that contradicts the moral teachings given to the Israelites in the Old Testament. So yes, I believe its moral teachings are derived from God.

Point 1)
Non of that says anything to to the immoral nature of eternal punishment for finite transgressions (let alone not being convinced of Yahweh/Jesus' -as depicted- existence)
Free Will/Choice simply doesn't come into the equation when it comes to beliefs. Belief isn't a matter of choice.

Point 2)
Am I to read from your post that you think thought-crime is a good moral law?

"God does not want anything to get in the way of his relationship with us."
Well, in that case, a little more evidence than an ancient, self-contradictory, changing, book would be nice! God is putting the souls of billions upon billions of people in the hands of sinful people. Something a little less editable than a book would have been a better idea tbh ;)

Point 3)
Ok, a simple one for starters:
-If you know that X is going to happen you cannot change it - thus you are not omnipotent/all-powerful.
-If you have the power to change X you cannot know that X is going to happen - thus you are not omniscient/all-knowing.
-You cannot be omnipotent/all-powerful and omniscient/all-knowing.

If God is the creator of everything, surely he has to be all of these things?

What other things are there? (I have an idea of what you're referring to but I don't want to put words in your mouth)

Point 4)
We can get into the specifics of the resurrection and the diciples if you like but my point was simply to refute the idea that "nobody would die for a lie".

Point 5)
Within 100 years isn't contempory and if you want to say that anything within 100 years is reliable then what about the other so-called Messiahs? What about the parts of the bible that you seem to dismiss ("Mathews" account of the graves emptying and invading Jerusalem). You can't just make a blanket statement like that.

Josephus' writings about Jesus are, to be kind, extremely unreliable.

I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I look to Jesus for my moral teachings. There is nothing that he does that contradicts the moral teachings given to the Israelites in the Old Testament. So yes, I believe its moral teachings are derived from God.

In that case what are your thoughts on God supporting slavery?

1) Eternal punishment is eternity away from God. If you choose to be away from God in this life, then as I said earlier, God respects that decision and maintains that you are away from him in the next. Transgressions may be finite, but the consequences of our transgressions could be infinite, like a domino effect causing other sins. But from my perspective the point is, regardless of whether transgressions are finite or infinite, we can access heaven through no deed of our own through Jesus. By letting his only son die on the cross, God completely shattered the moral structure that we know, one perfect, sinless life in exchange for countless imperfect ones.
If hell is immoral, then grace and heaven are a thousand times more immoral in that they do not conform with accepted principles of right and wrong behaviour. What is more immoral, someone who receives eternity in hell for knowingly going against the things that God knows are best for them, or a serial rapist who receives eternal life just because he accepted Jesus? We're told quite clearly in the Bible that the wages for sin is death...but that through Christ we can have life...if we choose him.

This is the choice that I am talking about, you can choose to believe that God came down to earth in human form and died for the sins of everyone who will ever live, or you can choose to believe not to. Can hell be immoral if you've got the opportunity to avoid it?

2) If I were to sleep with a girl that took my eye in the street, then I would be committing adultery against my girlfriend. How is thinking about a girl in that context who isn't my girlfriend not just as bad. In my heart, I'd be betraying her, because I'm lusting after someone else, and that cannot be right. And on earth, there is no middle ground between right and wrong, so if something is not right, then it must be wrong. Being aware of the things you think doesn't only protect you, it protects others as well.

Even inspired people can be wrong sometimes, there are some discrepancies in the Bible. But Jesus fulfils over 400 prophecies that are made hundreds of years before he was born, and I am convinced his teaching is flawless. But there's also the part that faith has to play in it. And faith is risky, because it's being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see. And I've tried your side of the fence, and I am SO much more content this side. And at the end of the day, if I am wrong, then I'm confident that I've really lived. And if I don't get reward when I die, then I know I'll be at peace because I've lived a life that is based on true and pure values.

God trusts us, which is why he uses us to tell other people about him, like a father trusting his child with something precious.

Point 3:
-Just because one thing has happened doesn't mean that was what always going to happen, it may have been changed. God works all things for good. Just because someone has the power to do something doesn't mean they are obliged to do it.

-Time is a social construct, in other words, God created the idea of time, and therefore created time. This makes it possible for God to see through time, and the consequences of actions, hence omniscient.

Thanks for not putting words into my mouth, I was thinking of omnibenevolent as well.

Point 4: More than happy to get into those specifics if you so wish.

Point 5: Would any historical document not be treated with high skepticism and considered sketchy given the magnitude of the events?

I'd love to hear what your personal beliefs are : )

 

[BulgarianPride]

-Time is a social construct, in other words, God created the idea of time, and therefore created time. This makes it possible for God to see through time, and the consequences of actions, hence omniscient.

Time is not a an ideal. It is an actual dimension, which is always moving forward. Meaning, that happens next is undefined, and what previous happened can't be changed.
I don't believe that god can change much about our lives. What would be point?

 

[ElanJo]

Point 1)
Non of that says anything to to the immoral nature of eternal punishment for finite transgressions (let alone not being convinced of Yahweh/Jesus' -as depicted- existence)
Free Will/Choice simply doesn't come into the equation when it comes to beliefs. Belief isn't a matter of choice.

Point 2)
Am I to read from your post that you think thought-crime is a good moral law?

"God does not want anything to get in the way of his relationship with us."
Well, in that case, a little more evidence than an ancient, self-contradictory, changing, book would be nice! God is putting the souls of billions upon billions of people in the hands of sinful people. Something a little less editable than a book would have been a better idea tbh ;)

Point 3)
Ok, a simple one for starters:
-If you know that X is going to happen you cannot change it - thus you are not omnipotent/all-powerful.
-If you have the power to change X you cannot know that X is going to happen - thus you are not omniscient/all-knowing.
-You cannot be omnipotent/all-powerful and omniscient/all-knowing.


What other things are there? (I have an idea of what you're referring to but I don't want to put words in your mouth)

Point 4)
We can get into the specifics of the resurrection and the diciples if you like but my point was simply to refute the idea that "nobody would die for a lie".

Point 5)
Within 100 years isn't contempory and if you want to say that anything within 100 years is reliable then what about the other so-called Messiahs? What about the parts of the bible that you seem to dismiss ("Mathews" account of the graves emptying and invading Jerusalem). You can't just make a blanket statement like that.

Josephus' writings about Jesus are, to be kind, extremely unreliable.



In that case what are your thoughts on God supporting slavery?

1) Eternal punishment is eternity away from God. If you choose to be away from God in this life, then as I said earlier, God respects that decision and maintains that you are away from him in the next. Transgressions may be finite, but the consequences of our transgressions could be infinite, like a domino effect causing other sins. But from my perspective the point is, regardless of whether transgressions are finite or infinite, we can access heaven through no deed of our own through Jesus. By letting his only son die on the cross, God completely shattered the moral structure that we know, one perfect, sinless life in exchange for countless imperfect ones.
If hell is immoral, then grace and heaven are a thousand times more immoral in that they do not conform with accepted principles of right and wrong behaviour. What is more immoral, someone who receives eternity in hell for knowingly going against the things that God knows are best for them, or a serial rapist who receives eternal life just because he accepted Jesus? We're told quite clearly in the Bible that the wages for sin is death...but that through Christ we can have life...if we choose him.

This is the choice that I am talking about, you can choose to believe that God came down to earth in human form and died for the sins of everyone who will ever live, or you can choose to believe not to. Can hell be immoral if you've got the opportunity to avoid it?

2) If I were to sleep with a girl that took my eye in the street, then I would be committing adultery against my girlfriend. How is thinking about a girl in that context who isn't my girlfriend not just as bad. In my heart, I'd be betraying her, because I'm lusting after someone else, and that cannot be right. And on earth, there is no middle ground between right and wrong, so if something is not right, then it must be wrong. Being aware of the things you think doesn't only protect you, it protects others as well.

Even inspired people can be wrong sometimes, there are some discrepancies in the Bible. But Jesus fulfils over 400 prophecies that are made hundreds of years before he was born, and I am convinced his teaching is flawless. But there's also the part that faith has to play in it. And faith is risky, because it's being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see. And I've tried your side of the fence, and I am SO much more content this side. And at the end of the day, if I am wrong, then I'm confident that I've really lived. And if I don't get reward when I die, then I know I'll be at peace because I've lived a life that is based on true and pure values.

God trusts us, which is why he uses us to tell other people about him, like a father trusting his child with something precious.

Point 3:
-Just because one thing has happened doesn't mean that was what always going to happen, it may have been changed. God works all things for good. Just because someone has the power to do something doesn't mean they are obliged to do it.

-Time is a social construct, in other words, God created the idea of time, and therefore created time. This makes it possible for God to see through time, and the consequences of actions, hence omniscient.

Thanks for not putting words into my mouth, I was thinking of omnibenevolent as well.

Point 4: More than happy to get into those specifics if you so wish.

Point 5: Would any historical document not be treated with high skepticism and considered sketchy given the magnitude of the events?

I'd love to hear what your personal beliefs are : )

I'll reply to all this when I have a little more time but I can't help noticing you missed my last question regarding the Biblical God's support of slavery ;)

Regarding my belief/s:
I don't believe in any god. I don't know whether a god/s exists but I think many definitions of god are logically impossible and therefore I believe that these gods do not infact exist (in the same way that a SquareCircle doesn't exist or that 'X is X and not X' is impossible) I can get into this in more detail later tho if you wish.

 

[chestervegasblue]

1) Eternal punishment is eternity away from God. If you choose to be away from God in this life, then as I said earlier, God respects that decision and maintains that you are away from him in the next. Transgressions may be finite, but the consequences of our transgressions could be infinite, like a domino effect causing other sins. But from my perspective the point is, regardless of whether transgressions are finite or infinite, we can access heaven through no deed of our own through Jesus. By letting his only son die on the cross, God completely shattered the moral structure that we know, one perfect, sinless life in exchange for countless imperfect ones.
If hell is immoral, then grace and heaven are a thousand times more immoral in that they do not conform with accepted principles of right and wrong behaviour. What is more immoral, someone who receives eternity in hell for knowingly going against the things that God knows are best for them, or a serial rapist who receives eternal life just because he accepted Jesus? We're told quite clearly in the Bible that the wages for sin is death...but that through Christ we can have life...if we choose him.

This is the choice that I am talking about, you can choose to believe that God came down to earth in human form and died for the sins of everyone who will ever live, or you can choose to believe not to. Can hell be immoral if you've got the opportunity to avoid it?

2) If I were to sleep with a girl that took my eye in the street, then I would be committing adultery against my girlfriend. How is thinking about a girl in that context who isn't my girlfriend not just as bad. In my heart, I'd be betraying her, because I'm lusting after someone else, and that cannot be right. And on earth, there is no middle ground between right and wrong, so if something is not right, then it must be wrong. Being aware of the things you think doesn't only protect you, it protects others as well.

Even inspired people can be wrong sometimes, there are some discrepancies in the Bible. But Jesus fulfils over 400 prophecies that are made hundreds of years before he was born, and I am convinced his teaching is flawless. But there's also the part that faith has to play in it. And faith is risky, because it's being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see. And I've tried your side of the fence, and I am SO much more content this side. And at the end of the day, if I am wrong, then I'm confident that I've really lived. And if I don't get reward when I die, then I know I'll be at peace because I've lived a life that is based on true and pure values.

God trusts us, which is why he uses us to tell other people about him, like a father trusting his child with something precious.

Point 3:
-Just because one thing has happened doesn't mean that was what always going to happen, it may have been changed. God works all things for good. Just because someone has the power to do something doesn't mean they are obliged to do it.

-Time is a social construct, in other words, God created the idea of time, and therefore created time. This makes it possible for God to see through time, and the consequences of actions, hence omniscient.

Thanks for not putting words into my mouth, I was thinking of omnibenevolent as well.

Point 4: More than happy to get into those specifics if you so wish.

Point 5: Would any historical document not be treated with high skepticism and considered sketchy given the magnitude of the events?

I'd love to hear what your personal beliefs are : )

I'll reply to all this when I have a little more time but I can't help noticing you missed my last question regarding the Biblical God's support of slavery ;)

Regarding my belief/s:
I don't believe in any god. I don't know whether a god/s exists but I think many definitions of god are logically impossible and therefore I believe that these gods do not infact exist (in the same way that a SquareCircle doesn't exist or that 'X is X and not X' is impossible) I can get into this in more detail later tho if you wish.

Apologies, I meant to ask you for the specific passages you were referring to.

You've actually got a stronger faith than most people mate, because in what you're saying, you believe that when we die there is nothing, because humans have no power over death. To hedge your bets on no afterlife whatsoever is an extremely brave move, and if you'll forgive me, slightly foolish. What I mean by this is if I am wrong with my belief and you are right, then the same thing will happen to both of us...nothingness. However, if you are wrong and I am right, then the consequences for you are a lot more serious. Logic tells me that my faith is actually a safer option. But I hope I've conveyed that this isn't the reason why I'm a Christian : ).

 

[tonea2003]

I'll reply to all this when I have a little more time but I can't help noticing you missed my last question regarding the Biblical God's support of slavery ;)

Regarding my belief/s:
I don't believe in any god. I don't know whether a god/s exists but I think many definitions of god are logically impossible and therefore I believe that these gods do not infact exist (in the same way that a SquareCircle doesn't exist or that 'X is X and not X' is impossible) I can get into this in more detail later tho if you wish.

Apologies, I meant to ask you for the specific passages you were referring to.

You've actually got a stronger faith than most people mate, because in what you're saying, you believe that when we die there is nothing, because humans have no power over death. To hedge your bets on no afterlife whatsoever is an extremely brave move, and if you'll forgive me, slightly foolish. What I mean by this is if I am wrong with my belief and you are right, then the same thing will happen to both of us...nothingness. However, if you are wrong and I am right, then the consequences for you are a lot more serious. Logic tells me that my faith is actually a safer option. But I hope I've conveyed that this isn't the reason why I'm a Christian : ).

got to step in here, throwing in the fear factor is absolutely outrageous( elanjo won't be swayed anyway) you have no proof what so ever of anything remotely afterlife. typical christian scaremongering of you will feel the wrath if you don't believe. scandalous.

 

[Lucky Toma]

He's just putting forward Pascal's Wager; the French philosopher who said that you may as well believe in God because you've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

However the post does reek of Christian piety.

 

[tonea2003]

He's just putting forward Pascal's Wager; the French philosopher who said that you may as well believe in God because you've got nothing to lose and everything to gain.

However the post does reek of Christian piety.

that wager can be used on anything you could make up that might sound good
but the principle is there i suppose, no reason why god should have exclusivity on the wager.

 

[Lucky Toma]

I agree mate.

My thoughts on religion - its the airplane around us. Some people take comfort in the engineering of the craft. Others require faith, willing the thing to stay in the air. Its all good either way.

 

[tonea2003]

I agree mate.

My thoughts on religion - its the airplane around us. Some people take comfort in the engineering of the craft. Others require faith, willing the thing to stay in the air. Its all good either way.

not if you are putting fear into people to have faith its not.

 

[chestervegasblue]

Apologies, I meant to ask you for the specific passages you were referring to.

You've actually got a stronger faith than most people mate, because in what you're saying, you believe that when we die there is nothing, because humans have no power over death. To hedge your bets on no afterlife whatsoever is an extremely brave move, and if you'll forgive me, slightly foolish. What I mean by this is if I am wrong with my belief and you are right, then the same thing will happen to both of us...nothingness. However, if you are wrong and I am right, then the consequences for you are a lot more serious. Logic tells me that my faith is actually a safer option. But I hope I've conveyed that this isn't the reason why I'm a Christian : ).

got to step in here, throwing in the fear factor is absolutely outrageous( elanjo won't be swayed anyway) you have no proof what so ever of anything remotely afterlife. typical christian scaremongering of you will feel the wrath if you don't believe. scandalous.

Tonea, I was also responding to a previous point made by ElanJo that my faith is compleltey bereft of logic, which is what I was trying to do with Pascal's Wager...it's not a fear mongering attempt, the relationship that enjoy with God is not based on fear, so why should my methods of expression involve it? I don't reason to strike fear into people to have faith because of how amazing and good knowing God is.

Trying to convey it in words is difficult, it's easier demonstrated in life.