ElanJo said:
Point 1)
Non of that says anything to to the immoral nature of eternal punishment for finite transgressions (let alone not being convinced of Yahweh/Jesus' -as depicted- existence)
Free Will/Choice simply doesn't come into the equation when it comes to beliefs. Belief isn't a matter of choice.
Point 2)
Am I to read from your post that you think thought-crime is a good moral law?
"God does not want anything to get in the way of his relationship with us."
Well, in that case, a little more evidence than an ancient, self-contradictory, changing, book would be nice! God is putting the souls of billions upon billions of people in the hands of sinful people. Something a little less editable than a book would have been a better idea tbh ;)
Point 3)
Ok, a simple one for starters:
-If you know that X is going to happen you cannot change it - thus you are not omnipotent/all-powerful.
-If you have the power to change X you cannot know that X is going to happen - thus you are not omniscient/all-knowing.
-You cannot be omnipotent/all-powerful and omniscient/all-knowing.
What other things are there? (I have an idea of what you're referring to but I don't want to put words in your mouth)
Point 4)
We can get into the specifics of the resurrection and the diciples if you like but my point was simply to refute the idea that "nobody would die for a lie".
Point 5)
Within 100 years isn't contempory and if you want to say that anything within 100 years is reliable then what about the other so-called Messiahs? What about the parts of the bible that you seem to dismiss ("Mathews" account of the graves emptying and invading Jerusalem). You can't just make a blanket statement like that.
Josephus' writings about Jesus are, to be kind, extremely unreliable.
In that case what are your thoughts on God supporting slavery?
1) Eternal punishment is eternity away from God. If you choose to be away from God in this life, then as I said earlier, God respects that decision and maintains that you are away from him in the next. Transgressions may be finite, but the consequences of our transgressions could be infinite, like a domino effect causing other sins. But from my perspective the point is, regardless of whether transgressions are finite or infinite, we can access heaven through no deed of our own through Jesus. By letting his only son die on the cross, God completely shattered the moral structure that we know, one perfect, sinless life in exchange for countless imperfect ones.
If hell is immoral, then grace and heaven are a thousand times more immoral in that they do not conform with accepted principles of right and wrong behaviour. What is more immoral, someone who receives eternity in hell for knowingly going against the things that God knows are best for them, or a serial rapist who receives eternal life just because he accepted Jesus? We're told quite clearly in the Bible that the wages for sin is death...but that through Christ we can have life...if we choose him.
This is the choice that I am talking about, you can choose to believe that God came down to earth in human form and died for the sins of everyone who will ever live, or you can choose to believe not to. Can hell be immoral if you've got the opportunity to avoid it?
2) If I were to sleep with a girl that took my eye in the street, then I would be committing adultery against my girlfriend. How is thinking about a girl in that context who isn't my girlfriend not just as bad. In my heart, I'd be betraying her, because I'm lusting after someone else, and that cannot be right. And on earth, there is no middle ground between right and wrong, so if something is not right, then it must be wrong. Being aware of the things you think doesn't only protect you, it protects others as well.
Even inspired people can be wrong sometimes, there are some discrepancies in the Bible. But Jesus fulfils over 400 prophecies that are made hundreds of years before he was born, and I am convinced his teaching is flawless. But there's also the part that faith has to play in it. And faith is risky, because it's being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see. And I've tried your side of the fence, and I am SO much more content this side. And at the end of the day, if I am wrong, then I'm confident that I've really lived. And if I don't get reward when I die, then I know I'll be at peace because I've lived a life that is based on true and pure values.
God trusts us, which is why he uses us to tell other people about him, like a father trusting his child with something precious.
Point 3:
-Just because one thing has happened doesn't mean that was what always going to happen, it may have been changed. God works all things for good. Just because someone has the power to do something doesn't mean they are obliged to do it.
-Time is a social construct, in other words, God created the idea of time, and therefore created time. This makes it possible for God to see through time, and the consequences of actions, hence omniscient.
Thanks for not putting words into my mouth, I was thinking of omnibenevolent as well.
Point 4: More than happy to get into those specifics if you so wish.
Point 5: Would any historical document not be treated with high skepticism and considered sketchy given the magnitude of the events?
I'd love to hear what your personal beliefs are : )
