ElanJo said:chestervegasblue said:Apologies, I meant to ask you for the specific passages you were referring to.
You've actually got a stronger faith than most people mate, because in what you're saying, you believe that when we die there is nothing, because humans have no power over death. To hedge your bets on no afterlife whatsoever is an extremely brave move, and if you'll forgive me, slightly foolish. What I mean by this is if I am wrong with my belief and you are right, then the same thing will happen to both of us...nothingness. However, if you are wrong and I am right, then the consequences for you are a lot more serious. Logic tells me that my faith is actually a safer option. But I hope I've conveyed that this isn't the reason why I'm a Christian : ).
I actually missed this. It's obviously not the first time I've heard Pascals wager before. It's a frankly ridiculous and underhanded argument.
First of all if it's not a reason why you're a Christian why bring it up? I find that, as a general rule, you can tell why people believe what they do by the way they try and convince others. If Christians use fear of damnation with those they argue with then it's pretty obvious that they are a Christian because they are scared of the supposed consequences of not being one.
Perhaps Pascal's wager didn't convince you to become a Christian, probablity tells me that it's far more likely that you were brought up to be a Christian, but it's very likely part of why you are still a Christian. The same goes for your apologist arguments here, I highly doubt that you were an atheist who was won over to Christianity by the Cosmological argument for instance. These kinds of things act to reinforce or bolster a prior indoctrinated commitment to the religion, not persuade (they're very weak to boot)
Anyway, no, there is no faith on my part. I don't know what happens when we die but reason and evidence tends to suggest that we return to the state that 'we' were in before we were born. Do you remember that state? me neither.
On to the wager,
1) if there is an afterlife it doesn't automatically mean that Christianity is true. So me not believing in Christianity doesn't automatically send me to Hell in this scenario.
2) if there is an afterlife and there is a God it doesn't automatically mean that you're going to Heaven. There are plenty of Gods in our history that would send a Christian to hell. God's tend to not like those who worship false gods...
3) If it is foolish not to believe in a God, due to potential punishment, why is it not foolish to believe in just 1? You really should believe in every single God to properly "hedge your bets"
4) What if there is an afterlife and a God but this God, who endowed us with the capablity to reason, only rewarded(or didn't punish at least) those who didn't believe in things without evidence or reason?
I could go on but I don't want to beat a dead horse. Pascal's wager is probably the worst apologetic argument going - and that is really saying something!
In the end tho, why on earth would you worship a God that would send people into eternal torment for simply not being convinced of his existence?
But he doesnt!
Off to church now, bye. (seriously).
:O)