He is Risen...

[PJMCC1UK]

But why then did Jesus die for MY sins??

Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross as payment for the sins of man. By doing so, he has now given us the freedom to choose whether we want to live accoring to his teachings and go to heaven when we die or turn the other way and live according to the worlds teachings and be completely seperated from God when we die.

This is why we are now able to pray for forgiveness and repent when we sin because Jesus enabled it by paying the ultimate price on the cross.

If Jesus did not die for our sins, we will all be condemned after death.

You do realise that its highly possible that jesus did not die on the cross, right? I.e he was alive when taken off but badly injured.. Also, why would jesus sacrificing himself spare mankind any punishment? Not egging you on (pun was intended) just curious to have a reasoned debate on the subject without it getting nasty.

I too would really like a reasoned chat. I have a few questions that I would love to know the answer to. As I said in a previous post though Twitter has the barm pot evangelical Christians who never answer anything.

 

[chestervegasblue]

Jesus sacrificed himself on the cross as payment for the sins of man. By doing so, he has now given us the freedom to choose whether we want to live accoring to his teachings and go to heaven when we die or turn the other way and live according to the worlds teachings and be completely seperated from God when we die.

This is why we are now able to pray for forgiveness and repent when we sin because Jesus enabled it by paying the ultimate price on the cross.

If Jesus did not die for our sins, we will all be condemned after death.

That makes no sense.
He died for the sins of man thousands of years ago. So are all those who lived before him condemned? Surely they must be if only now are we free to ''choose''.
I also understand that Jesus was sentenced to death. He did not sacrifice himself. He was handed over. In no way does that mean he offered himself up for our sins. So his followers spun that one in my opinion.

And didn't God create man with sin?
I also don't get why he would need to sacrifice himself to his own dad. If his Dad sent him to teach us surely it would benefit humanity that he stayed.

Good points. I think even the biggest christian believer would find it hard to argue that with so many versions of the bible there wasnt some fuckery involved in them somewhere.

Good points indeed. Excellent questions.

Biblically speaking, salvation has always been a product of the content of a person's faith. Those who believed in God would be saved. Because Christ was present at creation (not an indication that I am a world was created 4000 years ago person), his death could pay for the sins of those who died before he was on earth. Jews couldn't have faith in a man who hadn't existed yet, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't be made righteous in the eyes of the Father by the son's sacrifice. They still had to choose to have faith in God.

On the sacrifice point, it's not how he died that was the point (although it did fulfil tonnes of prophecies, partic. Psalm 22), but the fact that he was obedient to death. If he was the son of God, Jesus had unlimited power at his disposal. He could have very easily avoided the cross, but he didn't.

On your "created with sin" point: We were created with sin, but with the opportunity to sin. It's actually a massive expression of love to give someone the opportunity not to love you back.

Why would he need to sacrifice himself in the way that he did? Because Jews knew that story. It actually makes sense of God asking Abraham to kill Isaac, but all along intending to use the lamb as a sacrifice.

Hope these help a little. Going to sleep now, but I'll check back here in the morning.

 

[80s Shorts]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r24hZXfl__o[/youtube]

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r24hZXfl__o[/youtube]

I've just watched that, not for the first time, and it raises an interesting philosophical question:

If you knew your name was going to live down the centuries and your teachings, whatever they were, would endure and be taught throughout the world for the rest of human history, but in order to do it, you'd have to experience a death like that - would you do it?

We all seek to impose ourselves on this world as much as we are able. None of us can live forever, but we try to find ways of making our mark.

I wonder, in the world we inhabit today, how much deferred veneration people are prepared to accept. Not as much as that, I reckon.

 

[The Flash]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r24hZXfl__o[/youtube]

I've just watched that, not for the first time, and it raises an interesting philosophical question:

If you knew your name was going to live down the centuries and your teachings, whatever they were, would endure and be taught throughout the world for the rest of human history, but in order to do it, you'd have to experience a death like that - would you do it?

We all seek to impose ourselves on this world as much as we are able. None of us can live forever, but we try to find ways of making our mark.

I wonder, in the world we inhabit today, how much deferred veneration people are prepared to accept. Not as much as that, I reckon.

Is that not vanity? Which is a sin?

Just askin'...

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r24hZXfl__o[/youtube]

I've just watched that, not for the first time, and it raises an interesting philosophical question:

If you knew your name was going to live down the centuries and your teachings, whatever they were, would endure and be taught throughout the world for the rest of human history, but in order to do it, you'd have to experience a death like that - would you do it?

We all seek to impose ourselves on this world as much as we are able. None of us can live forever, but we try to find ways of making our mark.

I wonder, in the world we inhabit today, how much deferred veneration people are prepared to accept. Not as much as that, I reckon.

Is that not vanity? Which is a sin?

Just askin'...

Is what, not vanity?

 

[80s Shorts]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r24hZXfl__o[/youtube]

I've just watched that, not for the first time, and it raises an interesting philosophical question:

If you knew your name was going to live down the centuries and your teachings, whatever they were, would endure and be taught throughout the world for the rest of human history, but in order to do it, you'd have to experience a death like that - would you do it?

We all seek to impose ourselves on this world as much as we are able. None of us can live forever, but we try to find ways of making our mark.

I wonder, in the world we inhabit today, how much deferred veneration people are prepared to accept. Not as much as that, I reckon.

We do not all seek to impose ourselves upon this world as much as we are able GDM. The rest ? a little silly.

 

[The Flash]

I've just watched that, not for the first time, and it raises an interesting philosophical question:

If you knew your name was going to live down the centuries and your teachings, whatever they were, would endure and be taught throughout the world for the rest of human history, but in order to do it, you'd have to experience a death like that - would you do it?

We all seek to impose ourselves on this world as much as we are able. None of us can live forever, but we try to find ways of making our mark.

I wonder, in the world we inhabit today, how much deferred veneration people are prepared to accept. Not as much as that, I reckon.

Is that not vanity? Which is a sin?

Just askin'...

Is what, not vanity?

Ok you got me. But is wanting your name to live down the centuries and making your mark vainglorious? The meek shall inherit the earth etc?

Christians breaking those commandments. Considering ALL Christians break the first commandment anyway?

 

[80s Shorts]

Is that not vanity? Which is a sin?

Just askin'...

Is what, not vanity?

Ok you got me. But is wanting your name to live down the centuries and making your mark vainglorious? The meek shall inherit the earth etc?

Christians breaking those commandments. Considering ALL Christians break the first commandment anyway?

It was GDM that was posing the question of somebody WANTING their name to live down the centuries. Nobody else.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r24hZXfl__o[/youtube]

I've just watched that, not for the first time, and it raises an interesting philosophical question:

If you knew your name was going to live down the centuries and your teachings, whatever they were, would endure and be taught throughout the world for the rest of human history, but in order to do it, you'd have to experience a death like that - would you do it?

We all seek to impose ourselves on this world as much as we are able. None of us can live forever, but we try to find ways of making our mark.

I wonder, in the world we inhabit today, how much deferred veneration people are prepared to accept. Not as much as that, I reckon.

We do not all seek to impose ourselves upon this world as much as we are able GDM. The rest ? a little silly.

Upon reflection that may have been a bit OTT, but it is natural for many to want to make their mark. It is a very human thing to do.

It is, sadly, what turns idealistic men into genocidal monsters.

I stand by the thrust of my original question though: would Jesus (or any of us) put up with that type of death (knowing we've all got to die one day), if we knew our name was going to be influential throughout the world two thousand years later.

Surely that's not a silly question to ask?

It was GDM that was posing the question of somebody WANTING their name to live down the centuries. Nobody else.

I think that's a little unfair. You've taken a bit of licence with what I posted.

I never asked if anyone WANTED their name to live down the centuries per se, I merely posed the question, would someone endure that type of death, if they knew it would. There is a subtle difference.