Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

TGR said:
People may or may not want to hear this...
I have a good mate who is a Nottingham Forest fan. He was actually there that day (unlike all of us). He says a massive load of Liverpool fans turned up outside the gates just before the kick off without tickets and yes they were very drunk. They caused all sorts of aggro with the police trying to force the gates, jump the turnstiles etc and causing all sorts of bother.
Now I agree what happened was completely and totally tragic and it always will be. But the Liverpool fans are not completely and totally blameless.
Lets not allow 'justice' to re-write history. Whether people like it or not at the time the Liverpool travelling fans were notorious for causing all sorts of trouble wherever they went (lets not forget Heysel - and how about 'justice' for those fans that were killed that day eh? Heysel NEVER gets a mention by anyone at anytime - funny that eh?)
Yes the Liverpool fans deserve justice of course they do - but as I say lets not re-write history, lets not cleanse the unpalletable, let us not disort the truth. Lets have full and complete disclosure. only then can 'justice' be served.
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With due respect unless the Nottingham Forest fan was also late and equally at the wrong end of the ground how could he possibly know what was happening outside the ground at the away end

There are always two sides, but you cannot get away from it that the police are there to control crowds, regardless of the situation. They train for worst case scenarios and how to react to any given situation. It would appear in this instance that the superintendent did little in way of correct reaction and only seemed to compound the situation. Further errors then occurring through not allowing appropriate medical treatment. All this then being compounded again by a alot of people covering their backs.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
TGR said:
People may or may not want to hear this...
I have a good mate who is a Nottingham Forest fan. He was actually there that day (unlike all of us). He says a massive load of Liverpool fans turned up outside the gates just before the kick off without tickets and yes they were very drunk. They caused all sorts of aggro with the police trying to force the gates, jump the turnstiles etc and causing all sorts of bother.
Now I agree what happened was completely and totally tragic and it always will be. But the Liverpool fans are not completely and totally blameless.
Lets not allow 'justice' to re-write history. Whether people like it or not at the time the Liverpool travelling fans were notorious for causing all sorts of trouble wherever they went (lets not forget Heysel - and how about 'justice' for those fans that were killed that day eh? Heysel NEVER gets a mention by anyone at anytime - funny that eh?)
Yes the Liverpool fans deserve justice of course they do - but as I say lets not re-write history, lets not cleanse the unpalletable, let us not disort the truth. Lets have full and complete disclosure. only then can 'justice' be served.
Click to expand...
If your mate was a Forest fan then he would have been at the other end of the ground and wouldn't have seen anything of the sort.

No one has ever disputed that there were drunk fans or those without tickets. Taylor himself makes it clear that drink played a small part and there were some fans without tickets.

But at the end of the day, that was not a significant contributory factor to what happened on the day and I really don't know why people continually bring it up. If it had been us then there would have been drunk fans or those without tickets and the same for most other big clubs. There will be pissed City fans in Madrid and quite a few won't have tickets. Does that mean the rest of us deserve to die inbside the stadium?
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Furthermore PB why wasn't this Forest fan in the ground when this was happening as the gates were opened just fifteen minutes before kick off?
perhaps he was pissed and late and therefore his evidence is of little value

a few numpties on this thread still believing the media lies and bullshit that was made up at the time to cover up criminality
 
TGR said:
People may or may not want to hear this...
I have a good mate who is a Nottingham Forest fan. He was actually there that day (unlike all of us). He says a massive load of Liverpool fans turned up outside the gates just before the kick off without tickets and yes they were very drunk. They caused all sorts of aggro with the police trying to force the gates, jump the turnstiles etc and causing all sorts of bother.
Now I agree what happened was completely and totally tragic and it always will be. But the Liverpool fans are not completely and totally blameless.
Lets not allow 'justice' to re-write history. Whether people like it or not at the time the Liverpool travelling fans were notorious for causing all sorts of trouble wherever they went (lets not forget Heysel - and how about 'justice' for those fans that were killed that day eh? Heysel NEVER gets a mention by anyone at anytime - funny that eh?)
Yes the Liverpool fans deserve justice of course they do - but as I say lets not re-write history, lets not cleanse the unpalletable, let us not disort the truth. Lets have full and complete disclosure. only then can 'justice' be served.
Click to expand...


Stopped reading this after " have a good mate who is a Nottingham Forest fan. He was actually there that day (unlike all of us). He says a massive load of Liverpool fans turned up outside the gates just before the kick off without tickets and yes they were very drunk"

My first thought on this was WHY would a Forest fan outside the Liverpool end at kick off?? Wouldn't they have been in the ground or at the forest end trying to get ticket?

I watched this unfold on TV and have watched lots of footage over the last 20 plus years. I have not seen any footage that indicates the fans were drunk or badly behaved, they were just fans trying to get into the ground. As any of us would have if it had been City.


There probably were fans without tickets and others who had had a drink. How many on here, those of us who have gone to a large number of games have not at some point arrived late (mainly due to traffic problems), had a drink before a game or travelled without a ticket, I have done all 3 over the last 30 plus years watching City. I have been at grounds where City fans have jumped over the turnstiles, giving the lad on the gate some cash to let them in. I have seen City fans fighting each other on the terracing. Those things should not result in what happend that day, those events were caused by the complete incompetence of the police.

Kick off should have been delayed. The crowd should have been controlled outside. The gate should never have been opened. The central tunnel should have been closed off, and fans diverted round to the other pens. The gates in the fencing at the front should have been opened earlier, the fans above could see what was happening so why didn't the police react. Ambulances should have been let onto the pitch not held outside the ground. Announcements for medical experts should have been made in the ground.

What happened in the immediate aftermath, with the way families were treated and poor organisation was an appaling way to treat anyone who has just lost someone. I can accept that in some way, by that time the frontline were just fighting fires, while those reponsible spun their lies to cover their own backs.
 
The problem with this debate which ever view you have someone will find fault with you. Ask your self this question have we learned anything from it? Yes we have good stadiums now, but have all sides learned the lessons?
After the cup game at Liverpool last season and the way we were handled for the Community Shield this year (both of which I went too) I am not sure we have.
To let this go on for so long without the whole truth coming out must be awful for those who have been touched by that sad sad day
 
Truly overwhelmed by the support shown by manchester city fans here , nice to know that some non lfc fan actually understand the magnitude of the event ,

there's certainly some things more important in life than football

Cheers
 
Meanwhile, the crowd grew at the Leppings Lane entrance. As more arrived at the back the crush at the front grew worse. Entry to the turnstiles became more difficult. Their efficiency was impaired and their rate reduced. Arrivals at the back exceeded deliveries through the turnstiles, so the build-up increased. The foot officers outside were unable to function and in danger themselves so they went through the turnstiles and out again through gate C where they did what they could to relieve pressure by the tubular barrier. The mounted officers were surrounded by the dense mass of people and became ineffective. Superintendent Marshall was in the midst of the turmoil. He extricated himself and stood on a parapet of the bridge to get a clear view. A drunken fan tried to push him off: a beer can was thrown at a mounted officer. But these were isolated acts by individuals; the menace came from the massive numbers single-mindedly determined to be in for the kick-off with time running out. At the back of the crowd fans were frustrated by the lack of progress as 3 o'clock
approached. Some, mostly young men who had been drinking, tried to push and force their way forward. At the front, people were jammed together and against the turnstile walls. Some panicked as the pressure intensified. Some youngsters and women were fainting and in distress. They were helped out through the tubular barrier by turnstile G or were passed over the turnstiles elsewhere. Fans climbed up and over the turnstile building or on to the dividing fence. This was to escape the crush rather than to gain free entry since
most of them had tickets.

At 2.44 pm Mr Marshall radioed for reinforcements, for the Tannoy to request the crowd to stop pushing and for a vehicle with loudspeaker equipment to come and request the same. Unhappily, at about 2.40 pm, radio communication on channel 25 became defective. For a period of two or three minutes the control room lost contact. A communications officer came promptly and switched to the standby station. With the use of a handset at control, contact was restored. Despite this hiatus, two of Mr Marshall's requests were received. The Tannoy was used but with little effect. Reinforcements, including mounted officers from Penistone Road, were sent. The third request, for a Landrover, was received direct by its driver PC Buxton who arrived at 2.46 pm and urged the crowd by loudspeaker not to push. This was no more effective than the Tannoy. The mounted officers besieged near the turnstiles came outside the perimeter gates. An attempt was made to shutthem against the crowd outside, to enable the throng inside to be dispersed or at least thinned through the turnstiles. The pressure from without, however, opened the gates again. Mounted officers, now reinforced to
greater numbers, formed a cordon across the elbow of Leppings Lane from the sweet shop to the bridge, again with the object of reducing pressure inside the gates. They were successful in this for some minutes despite desperate individuals forcing their way under or between the horses. However, this exercise was overtaken by a more dramatic relief of the pressure.
 
I've spent years thinking that Liverpool fans were equally to blame with the police but having watched the documentary, I'm appalled at how ignorant I've been for all these years. The truth is that the police fucked up royal with thousands of fans who had turned up far earlier than I ever arrive at a turnstyle. I hope the people of Merseyside get their justice.
 
I wonder if we could run a Poll to find out how many people have read either the Interim or Final reports?

From reading this thread, all basis of fact is purely down to what they've seen on TV or from other media sources, some of whom have been apologising ever since.<br /><br />-- Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:15 pm --<br /><br />
citykev28 said:
I've spent years thinking that Liverpool fans were equally to blame with the police but having watched the documentary, I'm appalled at how ignorant I've been for all these years. The truth is that the police fucked up royal with thousands of fans who had turned up far earlier than I ever arrive at a turnstyle. I hope the people of Merseyside get their justice.
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Sorry, what, the police fucked up with supporters who did not want to enter the ground? What did they do wrong?
 
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