Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

levets said:
AND... remember.. had we drawn Wolves and not Ipswich... it would have been us!

Good point, I never considered that before. They would have used Villa Park for Spurs/ Ipswich due to capacity, Doug Ellis's influence in the FA and Highbury giving Spurs a travel advantage. (like VP would be for Wolves and the swamp for us).

So if we had drawn Wolves they were more likely to use Hillsborough than the only other possibility, Goodison Park.
 
Carver said:
levets said:
AND... remember.. had we drawn Wolves and not Ipswich... it would have been us!

Good point, I never considered that before. They would have used Villa Park for Spurs/ Ipswich due to capacity, Doug Ellis's influence in the FA and Highbury giving Spurs a travel advantage. (like VP would be for Wolves and the swamp for us).

So if we had drawn Wolves they were more likely to use Hillsborough than the only other possibility, Goodison Park.

I think Goodison would have been ruled out due to the logistics of getting in and out of there.. One way in and one way out... potential clash points!

Hillsborough would have been ideal in that scenario, City over the pennines and Wolves up the M1... So we would have presumably had the Leppings and Wolves the Kop...
 
As many will say the treatment towards fans around the time was nothing short of total disgust, some of it was bought on by the trouble going on at the time, but if you went to games and saw some stuff that went on some of it was bought on by the actions of the police themself and the feelings of the fans towards them.

An example of this was coming into sheffield train station after a game and when getting off the train being herded by the police while waiting for the connecting train. Just after a train full of sheffield united fans pulled in.
The police in their wisdom decided the safest place for us was in the mail cages, a sensible decision some might say to keep us only numbering about 20 safe, but allowing the sheffield united fans to walk past spit and stand there and openly piss on us while the police looked on smirking wasn't.
 
Taken from an article written by jimmy mcgovern for the liverpool echo - WHAT more do the Hillsborough families want? I've heard it said. "They've had everything. The Taylor Report, the inquest, judicial reviews, a legal scrutiny and the private prosecution of two senior police officers."

And I agree. They've had plenty of Law. A bellyful of Law. But they have never had Justice.

Take the case of Eddie Spearritt. Fourteen years ago today (15 April), at Hillsborough, the South Yorkshire Police ordered Eddie Spearritt, his son Adam, and hundreds of other Liverpool supporters through a gate, down a tunnel, and into the centre of two overcrowded pens.


The crowd swirled, as dense crowds often do, and Eddie and Adam found themselves at the front of the pen, hemmed in by wire and metal spikes.

On the other side of the wire was a policeman. He was looking at the ever-worsening crush but doing nothing.

Eddie called out to him that Adam was dying and that he must open the emergency gate and help the people trapped inside. The policeman clearly heard this but did nothing. Eddie lapsed into unconsciousness. Adam, his son, died.

The game was stopped at 3.06pm. By 3.40pm the pens were empty. By 4pm all the injured were in hospital. But Eddie Spearritt was not amongst them. Eddie Spearritt, desperately ill, did not reach hospital until five o'clock. Why?

The hospital was a few minutes drive away. Why did it take almost two hours to get a seriously injured man to a hospital a couple of miles down the road?

A reasonable question. A few years later, Eddie asked it of the consultant who had treated him that day. The consultant had no real answer but suggested that Eddie might have been admitted to hospital before five o'clock and considered non-urgent and put to one side.

Eddie found that difficult to accept. His injuries that day were critical. He was in a coma. He was sent to intensive care. His family was told that he might not last the night. That is NOT the type of case to be deemed non-urgent and put to one side.

There is, in fact, only one logical explanation and it is this: Eddie Spearritt was pronounced dead, probably at the ground, subsequently showed signs of life and was then rushed in for treatment.

And if Eddie Spearritt was pronounced dead, how many others were wrongly pronounced dead and denied the medical care that might have saved them?

Eddie decided to put this question to Lord Justice Stuart-Smith when, in 1997, the judge came to Liverpool to conduct a 'scrutiny' into the Hillsborough Disaster.

Eddie, by then, had scant faith in British judges but what little he had evaporated when, at the start of the proceedings, the judge said to the Hillsborough families: "Have you got a few of your people here or are they, like the Liverpool fans, going to turn up at the last minute?"

Sensitive souls, these judges, aren't they?

Nevertheless the scrutiny went ahead. It was a disgrace. If you want to learn just how bad it was, buy Phil Scraton's excellent book Hillsborough, The Truth. But, for now, I'll simply discuss the answer he gave to Eddie Spearritt. Some records, the judge said, suggest that it was five o'clock when Eddie got to hospital. Other records suggest that it was earlier.

Other records! Eddie now went back to the consultant who had treated him and asked him if he could have a look at these other records. The consultant didn't have a clue what the judge was on about. There were no other records. The judge had simply fobbed Eddie off.

Eddie Spearritt's case is crucial to our understanding of the sense of injustice that the Hillsborough families feel. South Yorkshire Police, remember, kept trained ambulancemen waiting outside the ground while, inside, untrained fans fought desperately to keep fellow fans alive.

How many more lives could have been saved if the medical response had been quicker and better? That is a question that has never been put because the coroner at the inquest and the judges at the judicial review refused to allow it.

And yet Eddie Spearritt is living proof that at least one man was left for dead who should not have been. So how many others? That is a can of worms that quite a few people would like to keep shut.


Tomorrow the can gets opened.
 
levets said:
Prestwich_Blue said:
Forzacitizens said:
Some funny comments in this thread,

'it was Thatcher's fault'

'coppers are right wing'

I really feel for the families of the victims. And if it had happened at City I would blame the police but I would also say that the it was caused because there were too many fans, whether the fault of the police or not, that's a fact.
I really don't know why I bother talking to people who have already made their minds up without actually reading the facts of the case. But I do because i might be able to convince one or two that they're wrong.

The Taylor report evidence was quite clear that the total number of fans on the Leppings Lane terraces was less than its total capacity. The HSE reviewed CCTV and worked out there were 9.734 fans on a terrace that had a capacity of 10,100. The problem was there were too many in the central pens and not enough in the outer ones.

The police & stewards were supposed to monitor that and, as I've already said, there was a well-established plan to close off the central tunnel and fill up the outer pens but that never got put into action, even though it should have been done BEFORE the gate was opened.

And to answer the assertion that it was the fans at the back who killed the ones at the front, it has been established that about 20 of the 96 dead came through Gate C after it had been opened.

If you want to read a short and easily digestible summary then I can recommend Roger Scratton's paper on the subject.

http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/4HFDContext-n-Consequences.pdf

This is the most disturbing part of the whole paper...

Between 4:30pm on April 15th and 9:00am on April 16th Two CCTV tapes are stolen from ground’s Police Control Room. The crime and motive remain unsolved.

still going on, lots of police incidents where the 'footage is not available' gets trotted out with no hint of shame, Derek Tomlinson case being the latest. Without camera phones there would be no case
 
On reading this thread I've noticed that the majority - who are blaming the awful consequences of that day on poor organisation and incompetance from the police and authorities - are doing so in a detailed, clear manner, laying out their arguement concisely and backing their view up with a variety of statistics and secondary sources.

The minority who are stating that the fans were either wholly or partly to blame are doing so in a generalised fashion, relying entirely on opinion or hearsay, and in many cases blatantly allowing their dislike for Liverpudlians to come through.

Yet, almost to a man, the latter are ending their diatribes with 'Fact'.

My qustion is this...when did the word 'fact' completely gain the opposite meaning?
 
People may or may not want to hear this...
I have a good mate who is a Nottingham Forest fan. He was actually there that day (unlike all of us). He says a massive load of Liverpool fans turned up outside the gates just before the kick off without tickets and yes they were very drunk. They caused all sorts of aggro with the police trying to force the gates, jump the turnstiles etc and causing all sorts of bother.
Now I agree what happened was completely and totally tragic and it always will be. But the Liverpool fans are not completely and totally blameless.
Lets not allow 'justice' to re-write history. Whether people like it or not at the time the Liverpool travelling fans were notorious for causing all sorts of trouble wherever they went (lets not forget Heysel - and how about 'justice' for those fans that were killed that day eh? Heysel NEVER gets a mention by anyone at anytime - funny that eh?)
Yes the Liverpool fans deserve justice of course they do - but as I say lets not re-write history, lets not cleanse the unpalletable, let us not disort the truth. Lets have full and complete disclosure. only then can 'justice' be served.
 
heysel was a result of liverpool fans stampeding across a terrace and forcing italian fans into a corner of the stadium and the wall collapsed. tragically 39 people lost their lives and it is never mentioned by kopites as they have nothing to defend this on.
 
Ok. Enough.
I have read this thread and refrained from commenting thus far.
As some of you already know I grew up in Liverpool but always a City fan. My younger brother was a Liverpool fan and season ticket holder.

He got caught up in the events on that tragic day. Watched his friends die FFS .

Those of you trying to share the blame are twisting he facts. Why would you do this? Come and tell me my family that you know better. I dare you. We\ He still carries the scars of that day.

No unusual behaviours that day. Some fans acting like gits but nothing over and above what would be normally expected by any crowd of supporters.

96 RIP
 
TGR said:
People may or may not want to hear this...
I have a good mate who is a Nottingham Forest fan. He was actually there that day (unlike all of us). He says a massive load of Liverpool fans turned up outside the gates just before the kick off without tickets and yes they were very drunk. They caused all sorts of aggro with the police trying to force the gates, jump the turnstiles etc and causing all sorts of bother.
Now I agree what happened was completely and totally tragic and it always will be. But the Liverpool fans are not completely and totally blameless.
Lets not allow 'justice' to re-write history. Whether people like it or not at the time the Liverpool travelling fans were notorious for causing all sorts of trouble wherever they went (lets not forget Heysel - and how about 'justice' for those fans that were killed that day eh? Heysel NEVER gets a mention by anyone at anytime - funny that eh?)
Yes the Liverpool fans deserve justice of course they do - but as I say lets not re-write history, lets not cleanse the unpalletable, let us not disort the truth. Lets have full and complete disclosure. only then can 'justice' be served.
If your mate was a Forest fan then he would have been at the other end of the ground and wouldn't have seen anything of the sort.

No one has ever disputed that there were drunk fans or those without tickets. Taylor himself makes it clear that drink played a small part and there were some fans without tickets.

But at the end of the day, that was not a significant contributory factor to what happened on the day and I really don't know why people continually bring it up. If it had been us then there would have been drunk fans or those without tickets and the same for most other big clubs. There will be pissed City fans in Madrid and quite a few won't have tickets. Does that mean the rest of us deserve to die inbside the stadium?
 

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