Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

[Mancborn]

seems some of these involved in the cover up were made knights of the realm - unbelievable

 

[The Future's Blue]

Firstly, may I apologise to all those I upset with my crass posts and comments regarding this incident. They were incoherent and badly published; that will teach me to drink before posting on such an important subject. No excuse whatsoever and I apologise profusely.

PB did bring up a couple of my old posts so I have decided to bring the rest up that will probably not paint me in the best picture, but as a debate, brings me to my personal views in the final post. What has always irked me was that the fans, and I include myself in that, have been totally exonerated of all responsibility. My personal view is that we can't be exonerated as it was some of the fans actions that led to the tragedy, and then travesty, that emerged.

I mentioned earlier in the thread about how a fan at the game had expressed his personal opinion to me and it actually sent a chill down my spine and brought the reality that I, as an individual, actually had an affect on what happened that fateful day.

Personally, I belive that's something that shouldn't be forgotten in all this, and something that modern day fans should never encounter. Exonerating myself is not the way I work, I had an impact on that day by allowing myself to get sucked into the troubles that occured in those times. I hang my own head in shame.

Anyway, if you're interested, just please ensure you read to the end before laying into me. And yes, in the interests of debate, some things were wrong to aire.

To many left-wing softies around here for me, Dippers sympathisers fuck me right off.

They are at the heart of 2 massacres yet no-one seems to ever put them to blame. Their families hurt but only because their families put them there.

Harsh, but true.

Liverpool fans rush the gate and start a crush.

Police open gates to stop people getting crushed.

Liverpool fans surge more and more into the ground which causes an even greater crush.

Police cannot open gates now because there ain't none, they're caged and it ends in carnage.

Emergency services are not prepared for such an incident and cannot handle the sheer amount of injured supporters adding to the tragedy.

Supporters and family blame the Police, the Police blame the supporters.

Who instigated the rush in the 1st place? The supporters.

Who perpetuated the incident by opening the gates? The Police.

So, who's to blame?

The supporters for starting the crush?

The Police for opening the gate?

The FA for allowing clubs to put up barriers?

It's a tough one but I if blame has to be laid I would have to say that it was those who started the revolution of actions.

PB. I understand what you are saying and don't disagree that the Police failed to cope under the circumstances but why did the Police have to deal with this in the first place?

Lessons have been learnt which has led to our modern Match Day Policing policy, and, touch wood, we never have that type of incident again. I've had to deal with lots of incidents where lives could've been lost (including riots (and no, I'm not a copper)) and it's all part of the job but it's actually when you see/become involved in these kind of incidents that you understand how quickly the mob rule takes over.

So no, I don't need to refer to the Liverpool game, even though you could never put that, not what I'd even call a minor incident, to something like what happened back then.

OK, so these fans who were late due to traffic problems, were they not in a rush to get into the game. And what about all those with tickets, were they not trying to force their way in?

It's already been shown that there was a massive build up of fans with hoards more coming up behind them. Are you actually telling me that they had nothing to do with this inident, that a couple of hundred policemen could stop that sort of surge from a crowd either wanting to get in because they were late or because they didn't have a ticket so had to force the issue?

Do you understand, you're not talking to a 12 year old, I've my own thoughts and if you can somehow lay the blame entirely at the feet of the police then I'm absolutely gobsmacked. I wonder if any of those policemen were wearing riot gear like the modern policemen now wear?

Do you remember back then, when things were very different to today? Remember the Kippax when we scored a goal, floating effortlessly 30 feet down the steps as you were picked up in the surge of the crowd?

They had thousands of fans late for a game who only had eyes on getting in that ground. Whether the police dealt with it effectively or not, you are not stopping that kind of thing with when it starts.

Seems that's the end of any debate then. On Wednesday I'm going to the game and dismiss all thought of responsibility for my actions. If/When we get to Wembley again I'm going let my lads go/do what they want as the Police will ensure they get back to me safe and sound.

Moral responsibility, something we should all be aware of in every aspect of our life.

As I said, I respect your opinion and will leave you with it. The only thing I will add is that your whole premis that the burden of blame lies solely on the Police Constabulary is based on the Taylor Report, a report that I feel was used to promote governmental policy in stopping elements of football society from thriving on the hooliganism element. There was an agenda set prior to Hillsborough and in effect the report was used to now control those elements with wide reaching reforms.

You may believe the Taylor Report had no governmental interference and it was solely there for the purposes of finding out what happened whereas I believe it was used as a control measure in order to bring the wayward supporters (including Liverpool fans) into order.

Although Heysel did again involve Liverpool fans and groups of well oiled supporters it was a well known fact before the game that a number of major firms were heading for this game, it was well talked about on England trips and after the event happened a number of high profile fans were seen to be in the town on the day of the game from Leeds WHU Chelsea and the Bristol clubs.

The question that I always ask when this is posed is 'If the firms were always against each other, why didn't the Liverpool supporters give them a good hiding?'.

If other firms were there then it was on the understanding that they backed up the Liverpool firm and they were, by association, well aware of what was going to happen, if not instigating it as the team playing.

And now, it's just getting monotonous. You read a report but don't take anything else into consideration. You say the fans are free from blame yet if they didn't put the Police in that position then it wouldn't have occurred.

Like I say, I do respect your opinion as it's what you hold true. Just stop trying to ram it down my throat as it's blindly wrong.

Do you understand???

I don't think many would put it at the feet of the fans, I feel it was a combination of all elements that led to this tragedy.

Previous fan behaviour had led to us being caged in, the Police, and government treated us like vermin.

Stadium's were becoming unsafe but were still being passed and previous complaints about crushing were brushed aside.

Fans pushed to the point where the Police were forced into a rash decision.

The Police made wrong decisions and had no contingency plan.

There was no coherent coordinated plan for the emergency services.

Many different factors that led to a disaster, not just the fans, not just the Police, not just the authorities.

 

[Kirkstall Blue]

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000101420001.pdf

an example of how accounts were altered by the police, no wonder they covered it up.

Unbelievable the extent they changed his statement. Shame you can't copy the statements and post on here, (they won't copy for me) People still don't know all the facts as the PC quite clearly states the fans were in good humour and not drunk before the game and only two or three cops were trying to control hundreds through a bottleneck, while backup forces were left idle in the gym.
Struck me as odd that the traffic warden had a radio, but wouldn't hand it over to a cop when he asked for it.

 

[squirtyflower]

some things were wrong to aire.

and so you air them again, and nicely put them all together for us

clearly yesterday went right over your head

 

[Pam]

What is going to happen to these bastards? There has to be criminal charges.

 

[shackattack]

<a class="vglnk" title="Link added by VigLink" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/SYP000101420001.pdf"><span>http</span><span>://</span><span>hillsborough</span><span>.</span><span>independent</span><span>.</span><span>gov</span><span>.</span><span>uk</span><span>/</span><span>repository</span><span>/</span><span>docs</span><span>/</span><span>SYP000101420001</span><span>.</span><span>pdf</span></a>

an example of how accounts were altered by the police, no wonder they covered it up.

Unbelievable the extent they changed his statement. Shame you can't copy the statements and post on here, (they won't copy for me) People still don't know all the facts as the PC quite clearly states the fans were in good humour and not drunk before the game and only two or three cops were trying to control hundreds through a bottleneck, while backup forces were left idle in the gym.
Struck me as odd that the traffic warden had a radio, but wouldn't hand it over to a cop when he asked for it.

not sure you can copy as it's a pdf document. the report itself is astounding and you can search it by organisations and individuals. it's hard to believe that anyone thought they would get away with it, and guess it's the reason they never wanted to release them. the overwhelming evidence against the police and other organisations is astounding.

 

[bluemurray]

Liverpool fan here. Joined this site to express thanks to some of the heartfelt comments that have been posted in here. Its nice to see.

Whats also great to see is fans of other clubs who have admitted to believing that it was the LFC fans own fault and have now acknowledged that they were misinformed and wrong.

Again, Thank you.

And thank you for your sentiments.... as for Fowler and McMananananaman.... well, we'll reserve that discussion for another time and place!

 

[law74]

What is going to happen to these bastards? There has to be criminal charges.

By all means those involved in ordering the cover-up should be tried for perjury, but the FA have to share the blame, as do the directors of nearly ALL clubs that allowed the ground to remain largely the same for generations, and WE as fans have to take our share of the blame as well, as without hooliganism there would have been no fences, no fences at the front of the terrace, no fences along the terrace and the fans would have been able to spread along the terrace and or hop over a wall, not try to scale a 10 foot high fence.

Opening the gate outside proved disastrous with hindsight, but who knows if there would not have been fatalities outside if the gate hadnt been opened, if an announcement had been made that the kick-off had been delayed by 15 minutes would the crush outside have been as bad?
We cannot blame just one or two people when an awful lot more must share some of the blame.

 

[carlosthejackal]

Looking at the Hillsborough evidence there were two previous Semi Finals in 1981 and 1988 that had raised similar causes for concern.
In 1981, City were paired with Ipswich at Villa Park. If we had been drawn against Wolves the chances are that we would have been allocated the Leppings Lane rather than Tottenham.
In 1988 Liverpool defeated City at Maine Road in a one-sided Quarter Final. Again, a favourable result would have seen us in the Leppings Lane against Forest.
One thing that can never be measured by the evidence is the shift in attitude towards football fans in general and Liverpool in particular.
On the day of the tragedy, City had lost 4-0 at Blackburn. I was standing by my car waiting for a couple of mates and it was a Blackburn fan that broke the news.
His actual words were: “Liverpool fans have been up to their old tricks again. The game’s been abandoned because somebody’s been murdered”
Those words are offensive in 2012, but in 1989 outside Ewood Park they made a lot of sense. Heysel was still fresh in the memory and Anfield was nothing like the tourist attraction that it appeared the other week.
Finally when City played United in the 2010 First Leg Semi Final how many rags turned up without tickets?
Good luck to everyone at Liverpool, in their fight for justice, but let’s not kid ourselves that football fans are perfect.

Some good points made and the final sentence is very very true.
The way the police and authorities have behaved is a disgrace, but as a supporter who has been attending games since 1968, i will hold my hand up and my share of responsibility for the events of that day.
I have watched City home and away, in europe home and away, in the first, second and third divisions.
I have been in the wrong section of the ground at many away games, i have turned up for games without tickets, i have turned up for games having had more than my fair share of drink, i have turned up at the last minute to get into the game.
I have never been arrested or looked to cause trouble, but there have been numerous games when the behaviour of City fans has been poor.
Our regular trips to Boundary park, Burnden park, Ewood Park, Grimsby, Blackpool, Coventry, Brighton, Forest, Wednesday,Leeds, Everton , the list is endless.
On the day of Hillsborough we played at Blackburn, as usual we stayed till the last minute in the pub, out of eight only five had tickets, the other three used the last minute rush to get in without tickets.
Even now it still goes on, the F A Cup final and last seasons home league derby are two occasions where i witnessed ticketless fans attempting to gain entry.
This goes on at all clubs and the bigger the support the more it happens.
This in no way excuses the cover up, but before football supporters start to paint themselves as angels, they should take a step back and cast their minds back to the football culture of the late seventies and eighties. It was cool to be one of the lads.
There was a reason why fences put up at grounds, a good example was Luton v Chelsea 1985.
Even after hillborough and the fences came down, we managed to have a full scale pitch invasion and riot against Spurs.
Unfortunatley 96 innocent people paid the price and their families have had 23 years of torment and still face a lifetime of sorrow.

 

[barryo]

I haven't read through all of this thread but I wanted to share my opinion so apologies if duplicated with others views.

The cover up included: Police, government,media,ambulance service and also what has been termed "the establishment".

The question therefore has to be.....who or what has the capability to organise such a huge scale cover up incorporating all of these organisations so quickly and seemingly undetected.

It would have to be far reaching, powerful and very secretive.