Hillsborough - The Search for Truth

[Gary James]

If anyone wants to know what actually happened that day I would suggest they read both the Taylor report and a book called "The Day Of The Hillsborough Disaster" - anyone who reads these will get a true sense of what happened that day and will also see how badly fans were treated - and at almost every football match back then.

Both books/reports stick to the facts and the memories of those that were there.

Taylor investigated the claims about drunken fans and late arrivals and found there was no evidence to say that this was any different to other similar fixtures and therefore not the cause.

The disaster could have happened at many games over the years and some of us who want to Sheff Wed games in the years building up to the disaster know how uncomfortably packed those terraces could be.

Way back in 1934 at least one City fan died due to crushing at a Sheff Wed-City game - no one learned. So many other disasters happened - no one learned.

By the mid 1980s fans were perceived as animals - and in many cases the violence and tribalism gave critics plenty of evidence - but none of that should cloud what actually happened.

Regardless of the 'blame' the aspect that continues to anger me is the ridiculous cut off point which was created saying that no one could have been saved after that time (and therefore no evidence could be presented). How insulting and unfair? They should have allowed the evidence to be presented and then made a judgement.

 

[Dubai Blue]

I have to laugh at the posters pontificating that the Liverpool fans were 'late and pissed', as though Scousers were the only people on Earth who would dare behave in such a disgraceful manner when attending a football match in the 1980s. City fans were turning up 'late and pissed' at Maine Road and away grounds all through the 80s and 90s, and probably long before that as well. Plenty of them still turn up at the Etihad 'late and pissed' so I really don't understand what point people are trying to make.

Hillsborough wasn't the first and only time football supporters had arrived at a stadium late and pissed, so it should have been factored into the planning of the authorities that day. But they didn't give a shit about football supporters back then so why bother employing a bit of common sense to ensure they remain safe? ANd that's not even taking into consideration the actual reasons for most of them being late, which has already been covered by previous posters.

 

[moomba]

I can sympathise with the cause and all that, and can appreciate the failings of the police and system etc.

But the whole campaign doesn't sit right with me.

It seems to me that its a fight not so much for the truth, but for total exhoneration. And I do think the campaign is such that anyone who even hints at the merest blame being attached to Liverpool supporters will be vilified for it.

The police didn't force anyone to rush through to get their spots without concern for the safety of those in front if them. And I don't see "the police and stewards didn't stop me" as a valid reason for anti social behaviour. And I do think that while all aspects of a tragic day should be looked at, only some will.

It was a shocking and tragic day, and I so feel desperately sorry for those that lost loved ones.

But it just doesn't sit 100% right with me.

 

[Hamann Pineapple]

We all know football fans can be treated with disdain by both police and some stewards. The attitude needs to change. We know certain elements require a firm hand but in my experience, the attitude of the majority of police officers attending any large football gathering is heavy handed across the board. This no doubt stems from fear/danger and requires a specialised training approach. I don't lay the blame for Hillsbrough soleley with the police, I'm not naive, but the fact that many police statements were edited before release shows there were huge failings that day.

 

[the kippax wall]

Do people on here really believe that if we were in the semi-final that day, the same thing could not have happened with our fans?
When we hear about the stage collapsing/fans getting crushed at rock concerts/football matches in places like South America, do we automatically blame the people attending or the victims. No, we question the haphazard organisation of the event or the management of crowd control.
I know it's hard to recollect how football was back then as we sit in our padded seats in our sterile nice new ground. But it's a fact that if you were a football fan you were treated as shite by the authoroties/police.
As for the 'because it was Scousers it happened' mentality some have on here. Well, you need to fucking grow up and open your eyes to the bigger picture.
Justice for the 96!

 

[The Flash]

Here's some facts for those doubting the Police were wholly culpable on the day:

Chief Superintendant Dukenfield, who had never controlled a match day operation before, ordered the gates at the Leppings Lane end be opened due to the crowd crush that was happening at the turnstiles.

Whilst people will still being crushed and dying in the ground, he stated that drunken fans had forced the gates open. ****.

Of the 40 strong ambulance convoy that was amassed outside the ground, Police controllers allowed only TWO into the ground and onto the pitch.

Cunts!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I can sympathise with the cause and all that, and can appreciate the failings of the police and system etc.

But the whole campaign doesn't sit right with me.

It seems to me that its a fight not so much for the truth, but for total exhoneration. And I do think the campaign is such that anyone who even hints at the merest blame being attached to Liverpool supporters will be vilified for it.

The police didn't force anyone to rush through to get their spots without concern for the safety of those in front if them. And I don't see "the police and stewards didn't stop me" as a valid reason for anti social behaviour. And I do think that while all aspects of a tragic day should be looked at, only some will.

It was a shocking and tragic day, and I so feel desperately sorry for those that lost loved ones.

But it just doesn't sit 100% right with me.

I think the point is that there was a clearly defined plan to deal with all these eventualities. There shouldn't have been a crush in front of the gates as there was a plan to manage the build up, which was used successfully the year before.

There was a plan to ensure that the crowds were evenly spread throughout the pens that had been used before.

The problem is that a senior police officer completely lost the plot that afternoon and, once it was clear he was culpable, lied and put in place a cover-up to hide his culpability. That involved lying to the FA about the opening of the gate and his seniors lying to the Prime Minister and media about the circumstances of the tragedy. And as you can see from some of the posts on here, there are still plenty who believe those lies.

The Liverpool fans did on that day what every other club's fans would have done in the circumstances. The game had started, their side were on the attack and they didn't want to miss it. So they made for the only obvious entrance into the terraces as quickly as they could. Don't forget that the collapse of the crush barrier was the immediate catalyst for the tragedy as well.

If there was blame to be attached to the fans' behaviour on that day, I think they would accept that as long as the authorities finally admitted that the vast majority of the blame lay with them.

All they want is that the true facts of the day are as well known as the lies.

 

[yerwot?]

"and all they want is the true facts to be as well known as the lies"

Perfect summary

Not just for the victim's families, but for everyone with a belief that those in power must have accountability for their actions, from front line right to the top.

 

[Forzacitizens]

Some funny comments in this thread,

'it was Thatcher's fault'

'coppers are right wing'

I really feel for the families of the victims. And if it had happened at City I would blame the police but I would also say that the it was caused because there were too many fans, whether the fault of the police or not, that's a fact.

 

[Gary James]

I really feel for the families of the victims. And if it had happened at City I would blame the police but I would also say that the it was caused because there were too many fans, whether the fault of the police or not, that's a fact.

There are so many aspects to this that it's difficult to answer one point or make a single statement without further issues/complications being raised. In terms of 'too many fans' - it has been argued by some that LFC should have had the larger capacity Kop as NFFC had much 'smaller' support. That may have caused other issues, but it shows the significance of getting the organisation right.

The FA, LFC, SWFC, the police and others would have known about LFC demand for tickets and attendance at these fixtures, afterall it's not as if this was LFC's only semi-final of the 80s. Demand may have been high, but those organising this fixture would have been able to predict that.

If they did not predict that then they failed. If they did predict it then they failed to get the organisation right (or individuals made mistakes in the management of the day).

Whether right or wrong, it just shows that the organisational aspects failed.

As I said earlier, read the Taylor Report and "The Day of The Hillsborough Disaster" - all aspects are considered. These were football fans who died attending what should have been a great game - it could have been any of us.