Hillsborough verdicts reached

[FanchesterCity]

I don't think anybody's 'against' Liverpool fans on this - the gripes with them are on other matters, and for another day.
Today it's about families, not football fans. Families of people who were under the care and supervision of authorities who were negligent in their duties, and the make matters worse, tried to cover it up.

It was 'football' that helped to mask the injustice, because fans had a poor reputation which allowed the media, the police and the government to misrepresent or in some cases lie about what happened that day, and to divert attention away from the negligent, nay unlawful killings.

Ultimately, this isn't about Liverpool fans - this is mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters wanting to understand the truth about how their loved ones died, and wanting to set the record straight on the myths and tarnished reputations. It just so happens the victims were Liverpool fans, but that's irrelevant. It's those families who now have what they've longed for.

It's joyous and shameful day though - joy that those families now have a much fuller understanding of how their loved ones died, and the negligence behind it, but also a formal judgment on it. It's shameful too that successive governments hoped it would go away, which merely prolonged the pain for so many.

 

[Manchester33]

Unfortunately we can't change what happened that day. We can however change what happens moving forward. I just hope this verdict changes the way people treat football fans in the future, we've collectively been demonized for decades and thankfully the Hillsborough families have fought for decades to prove cover-ups and negligence.

Now that we've discovered the truth, let's sit back and watch these scumbags get what they deserve!

 

[FanchesterCity]

"96 fans were unlawfully killed and NO supporters misbehavior contributed to the danger". Not sure about that bit

Crowd behaviour was poor in those days (and it's not that much better now) - but it was foreseeable. The procedures put into place where designed to take crowd behaviour into account, but having sailed close to the wind previously, on this occasion, it failed with catastrophic consequences.

I don't think anybody can argue that some elements on any crowd act like morons. In a crowd of a few thousand people trying to get into an end of a stadium, there will be some chanting, some trying to climb over a wall and some turning aggressive when they can't get in - perhaps a couple of hundred such people. But there will be thousands more just acting as a herd and trusting that someone somewhere is in control and that eventually, they'll be inside the stadium.

I do understand where you're coming from - because 'crowds' act a certain way and it's not always conducive to safety, but I think the crux of the question is 'did the crowds behave in any unforeseen way that contributed to the danger'.
If someone was killed at a bonfire, nobody would ask 'did the fire contribute to their deaths' - it's more about 'did the control of the fire contribute to their deaths'.
Are crowds dangerous? yes
Are racing care dangerous? yes
But when theirs an accident, you look to see if there was fault in the crown or racing car, and by 'fault' we mean something above and beyond their inherent (known) dangers.

 

[moomba]

Thought the unlawful part would have been what followed with cover ups and the like rather than what happened at the time.

Will be interesting to see what charges will be laid and against who.

 

[tonea2003]

Finally Justice for the 96 YNWA

 

[FanchesterCity]

Thatchers war on football fans (and to some extent liverpool) was the root cause why the innocent ones who died and their relative were treated with such contempt - that treating us fans like shite by the state is still going on.

The day itself was a catalogue of errors, poor planning, self interest and bad management by everyone involved

I am no Thatcher lover - BUT...
She and Hurd we lied to by the Police too. In the aftermath, she and Hurd were told a pack of lies by Duckenfield and others.

However, after the Taylor report was published, it became incredibly clear what had happened, and at THAT point, she and Hurd expressed extreme dismay with the SYP for the lies. But their biggest mistake of all, was not acting on it.
As much as I detest her, I can't blame her for believing the lies being fed. It was, as far as many were concerned, the latest in a long line of football hooliganism related incidents. People can be forgiven for thinking that was accurate up until the Taylor report - after that, nobody could think it.

 

[BigOscar]

To me, the deaths were almost an inevitable conclusion to the way football had been going. Fans had behaved terribly for years and police and the authorities in turn had an utter disdain for them and cared little about their safety. It was always going to keep getting worse until something terrible happened to shake everyone out of it. It was an inevitable accident as a result of all too predictable but unstoppable events.

The real crime for me will always be the cover up, as that was intentional, that was malicious and that was a deliberate, government led attack on the victims.

 

[Cellarite]

I've been asking myself this question over the last hour or so, and I'm going to raise this not to be inflammatory or be a troll but to be objective...is turning up without tickets not "a behaviour"

Why do you ask? Tell us exactly how many ticketless fans were outside the ground that day at kick off and how you know.

 

[worsleyweb]

I've been asking myself this question over the last hour or so, and I'm going to raise this not to be inflammatory or be a troll but to be objective...is turning up without tickets not "a behaviour"

You have to be so careful on this subject - someone will come on and say none or very few fans did not have tickets.

This would make it a very rare occasion when a club famous for jibbing in did not do so. I have worked on Turnstiles at Maine Road after the Hillsboro game and more "doubled up" when Liverpool came than any other team I worked on.

If the verdict had said .01% of the blame was from the fans but this would have been the same for any well supported club with passionate fans it would have been more believable to me. The overriding factor was that shit stand and poor control by the Police. I cannot believe Wednesday have not knocked it down by the way!

 

[tonea2003]

I am no Thatcher lover - BUT...
She and Hurd we lied to by the Police too. In the aftermath, she and Hurd were told a pack of lies by Duckenfield and others.

However, after the Taylor report was published, it became incredibly clear what had happened, and at THAT point, she and Hurd expressed extreme dismay with the SYP for the lies. But their biggest mistake of all, was not acting on it.
As much as I detest her, I can't blame her for believing the lies being fed. It was, as far as many were concerned, the latest in a long line of football hooliganism related incidents. People can be forgiven for thinking that was accurate up until the Taylor report - after that, nobody could think it.

but that was how thatcher ran the country with utter contempt for the common man, and that clouded her judgement and for that she is culpable