Holocaust Memorial Day - Monday 27 January

There's a fantastic documentary on BBC iplayer called 1944:Should we bomb Auschwitz? I've always wondered when and how much the allies knew, and why we didn't do more or do it sooner. This explains it all very well.
 
The reason it happened is because a group or groups of people demonised and persecuted another group or groups of people, something that has happened many times in history. Often it has a religious or ethnic basis - non-Jews v Jews, Catholic v Protestant, Sunni v Shia, tribe against tribe - but the common thread is that involves people who aren't part of what we could call the "mainstream", who are different in some way. Who weren't "one of us".

You're right that it wasn't a simplistic event but it started with the need for a scapegoat and the use of increasingly virulent language, via the media, to start to dehumanise that scapegoat. The US Holocaust Museum is particularly good on that part of it. People just assume it started with places like Auschwitz and Ken Livingstone perpetuated that with his ridiculous and insulting comments about Hitler suddenly 'going mad'. I'd recommend the late David Cesarani's brilliantly researched and written book 'Final Solution'.

And it's equally facile (but quite convenient for you) to blame it solely on 'fascists'. There are people on the left who deny it ever happened and who think British Jews are just Israeli propaganda shills. You & me have had this discussion and I've no wish to go over old ground but we had the former leader of the Labour Party - not someone you'd describe as a 'fascist' - describe British Jews (except he used the term 'Zionists') as having no sense of English irony, thereby making the 'not one of us' point quite openly. There are people who called for one of the oldest affiliated groups in the Labour to be kicked out because "they're not one of us" and "they're just a fifth column for a foreign power".

And that's how it starts, with people applauding and defending it. It's the pattern every single time it happens, with people turning their backs on, then actively turning on, their former friends & neighbours. The wilful blindness of some on here to this is empirical proof of how these things start, along with the more extreme view that would see Israel as a wholly malevolent presence that needs to be wiped out. And that's just on this, supposedly well-moderated forum.

And while your desire for a Holocaust Memorial is undoubtedly sincere & well meant, I think such a thing is the height of hypocrisy, as the UK (along with most other countries) did everything it could to turn a blind eye to the situation and kept the borders of the Palestine Mandate firmly shut even after Kristallnacht in 1938. The USA was little better, refusing to accept the few hundred passengers on the ship St. Louis, who had applied for US visas before they sailed from Hamburg. They were forced to return to Europe and meant were subsequently murdered.

Even today, we saw Brexit fuelled by the anti-immigrant sentiment expressed by people like Farage and the Leave campaign openly taking this line before the referendum. Rwanda, Bosnia, the situation of the Rohingya in Burma, the Kurds in Iraq & Turkey, and the Uighurs in China, show that if the lessons of the Holocaust have been learned, it's probably not the lessons we thought ought to be.
I wasn't blaming it solely on Fascism, I said the dangers of Fascism should be taught be in schools. Like you I will not go over old ground as we have had this discussion before.

If we were to broaden the subject on demonisation that would be a huge topic, one I would love to see because as I have said to you many times before I am against all forms of discrimination.

I also agree with you about the UK being hypocritical in having a memorial, but I do also think it could be a reminder that the UK was hypocritical and certainly not whiter than white when it came to the holocaust and its denial of safe passage. It would make a fair portion of todays right wing media very uncomfortable as they have not changed their stance from the 1930s to today on immigration and they continue with their divisive rhetoric.

I will add that book by Cesarani to my wish list, Cheers.
 
There's a fantastic documentary on BBC iplayer called 1944:Should we bomb Auschwitz? I've always wondered when and how much the allies knew, and why we didn't do more or do it sooner. This explains it all very well.
I think I’ve seen it, or one very similar.

I always found it quite profound that even in those days, where let’s just say barbarism was much more common, and everyone remembered the horrors of WW1, that when the news first reached senior British and American leaders of what was happening in these camps, they didn’t believe it because of how grim the news was.

I think I read somewhere that a senior American general cried and Churchill sat down and had a drink and didn’t speak for ages, it shocked them that much.
 
I think I’ve seen it, or one very similar.decades later

I always found it quite profound that even in those days, where let’s just say barbarism was much more common, and everyone remembered the horrors of WW1, that when the news first reached senior British and American leaders of what was happening in these camps, they didn’t believe it because of how grim the news was.

I think I read somewhere that a senior American general cried and Churchill sat down and had a drink and didn’t speak for ages, it shocked them that much.
A visit to the site of the former Belsen-Bergen camp certainly has an effect. Eerily silent it gives a powerful feeling of being on hallowed ground.
They say that even birds keep away. I am not sure about that but we didn't see or hear any in our visit on a lovely summer's day.
And there were dozens of similar camps.
 
The Allies knew, the Soviets were aware by 1941 and the US even ran a times article in the 30s on Gerbils and quoted his words about exterminating the jews from the fatherland.

In 1942 the UK, US and Soviets had already started tge process to trial tge Nazi leaders for genocide as they knew at least 2 Million jews and undesirables had been murdered in camps.

And then you have this

in March 1943, Viscount Cranborne, a minister in the war cabinet of Winston Churchill, said the Jews should not be considered a special case and that the British Empire was already too full of refugees to offer a safe haven to any more.


We were aware, PB is correct there is some hypocrisy in all this.
 
Apologies for my belated contribution. Lest we forget the slaughter of a populace for slaughters sake. I had a moment this afternoon to take in some snippets of footage of the atrocities and how difficult it was to comprehend.

Imagine for a second that it is your family or your daughter, or your sons, parents, grandchildren walking into the chambers waiting for the Zyklon to be released. Imagine for a moment the pitiful screams as gas took effect. Imagine for a moment the fight for survival in a dank and darkened death chamber.

Over the centuries, nothing has caused more pain and suffering for man than man himself. Through war, hate crimes, and random acts of violence the fear of the different and unknown has made itself known in human nature. The movie Schindler's List is a good example of this through the suffering of Jews at the hands of the Germans. There can be no clearer example of man's inhumanity to man.

The holocaust was far more than a tragedy; it is something you simply cannot describe with words. The sheer evil and hate that took place in the 1940's simplifies what man can be like when at his weakest and lowest existence. Through the merciless slaughtering and torturing of people the Germans showed to the whole world what it's like to be inhuman; to be an animal. In the wild creatures kill for food and survival. In the death camps of Auswihwitz there was killing simply because of our differences of belief. Never again they esposed..never again. But Rewanda and the Balkan wars put paid to the promise, as once more our world stood idly by and the silence was deafining. Will we ever learn? I do not think we will.

Whoever saves one life saves the world entire

 
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By coincidence I have been reading a book called, “The Volunteer”, based on the Polish resistance fighter Witold Pilecki. He volunteered to be captured to go into Aushwitz to form a resistance network and to help to bring attention of atrocities to the outside world (albeit he had no idea of the scale of the crimes he would witness). Countless requests for the death camp to be bombed were rejected. I won’t say any more in case peole wish to read the book.
Film on the way

 
Film on the way

Thanks Vic. I will keep my eye out for the film. It was a good book, albeit with a lot of sadness in it.
 

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