How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

BrianW said:
Well, we aren't are we?

And under your system (not in the ECHR) there is no protection whatever for our rights and liberties.

Because under our crazy electoral system, 35% of voters (located in the right places, not evenly spread across the UK) can elect a majority government. And that government can then do anything. There are no effective checks and balances. Our constitution, such as it is, can be amended by a 326/324 vote in the Commons. Take away the ECHR, and whatever they then vote for is the law.

The law is not about morals. It is what it is. Evil governments can pass evil laws. We have a burning example still in the living memory of very old people. Adolf and his mates were elected. Everything they did was legal under German law.

Far-fetched? Couldn't happen here? That's what they said. And we have seen how demagogues can gain sway in this country and how easily they can lead a huge chunk of the population into folly.

So yes, I would prefer the supervision of the ECHR. And preferably the EU too, even though, when it comes down to it, its powers over the sovereign states that form its membership are strictly limited by the agreed treaties. Because people are sometimes cunts, and very often they do not think things through. It's too easy to inflame people with headlines and conspiracy theories. And our political class is vile, among the worst in the 'democratic' world, while we also have a media that is wholly unchecked and run for the benefit of plutocratic, criminal tax exiles.

On top of all that, Brexit has fucked our economy. That's why you're paying more tax for less, and why that will be a continuing aspect of your life.

Does that answer your question?
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Increased taxation is about fiscal consolidation and has nothing to do with Brexit. In or out the measures for consolidation would be the same. They are there to reduce borrowing, curb the growth of debt, and reduce spending. See the Autumn statement.
In what way has Brexit fucked our economy? Even economists cannot agree on this.
 
KS55 said:
Increased taxation is about fiscal consolidation and has nothing to do with Brexit. In or out the measures for consolidation would be the same. They are there to reduce borrowing, curb the growth of debt, and reduce spending. See the Autumn statement.
In what way has Brexit fucked our economy? Even economists cannot agree on this.
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It has shrunk GDP, reduced international trade and increased our borrowing requirement leading to record deficits. The Brexiteers can blame the pandemic and Ukraine as much as they like but those factors have impacted every country in Europe and we're still doing worse than everyone else in spite of government claims to the contrary. The only reason that GDP isn't even worse is because of the non-value added inclusion of LNG gas imports and exports as discussed yesterday.
 
west didsblue said:
It has shrunk GDP, reduced international trade and increased our borrowing requirement leading to record deficits. The Brexiteers can blame the pandemic and Ukraine as much as they like but those factors have impacted every country in Europe and we're still doing worse than everyone else in spite of government claims to the contrary. The only reason that GDP isn't even worse is because of the non-value added inclusion of LNG gas imports and exports as discussed yesterday.
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We are not doing worse than everybody. I have no idea which of the high or low estimates for the effects of brexit on GDP are nearest the truth, but neither have economists.
Are you mixing up achieved numbers with one recent forecast?
In 2021 we had the highest GDP growth in G7. In 2022, we fell back somewhat but the differences to most eu countries are small.
We did worse than most in the pandemic.
In terms of debt ratio (a better indicator of economic health) we do much better than many eu countries and better than the eu as a whole, but again the differences overall are not great- we have about 5% to 10% less debt.
As I keep saying, there are many downsides to Brexit but you have to identify them correctly in order to deal with them.
For example, I would point to social factors being much more deleterious than economic ones. Education is a massive loser in Brexit, but none here ever mention it. Gov is even now trying to drum up more Iranian and Chinese students to the uk to replace lost eu students.
 
KS55 said:
We are not doing worse than everybody. I have no idea which of the high or low estimates for the effects of brexit on GDP are nearest the truth, but neither have economists.
Are you mixing up achieved numbers with one recent forecast?
In 2021 we had the highest GDP growth in G7. In 2022, we fell back somewhat but the differences to most eu countries are small.
We did worse than most in the pandemic.
In terms of debt ratio (a better indicator of economic health) we do much better than many eu countries and better than the eu as a whole, but again the differences overall are not great- we have about 5% to 10% less debt.
As I keep saying, there are many downsides to Brexit but you have to identify them correctly in order to deal with them.
For example, I would point to social factors being much more deleterious than economic ones. Education is a massive loser in Brexit, but none here ever mention it. Gov is even now trying to drum up more Iranian and Chinese students to the uk to replace lost eu students.
Click to expand...
Cherry picking the 2021 GDP growth figure is totally misleading. Because our economy suffered more than practically all our peers during the pandemic, it had a much larger drop to recoup. Taking the pre-pandemic figure and comparing it to now provides a much better comparison and on that measure we've done by far the worst, and are the only major economy that has failed to regain (or barely returned to) the pre-pandemic position. Debt ratios are also totally dependent on the type of economy in question (Japan's is double everyone else's for example) and on their own don't tell us much other than by how much they get better or worse. You're absolutely correct about the social and educational factors which will have a longer term impact on the economic health of the country.
 
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