How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Vic said:
Er - they were the Remain truth-tellers. Here are the Leave Liars:






"The EU’s supporters say ‘we must have access to the Single Market’. Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave." (Vote Leave briefing: http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_newdeal.html)
And of course, "There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it." Even the Bloviator admitted that was an expedient lie.
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The EU dispelled the idea that we could stay in the single market because we firmly stated that FOM wasn't on the table we said no.

EVERYONE knew that and remain didn't make their point well enough.





In short, no single market nearly all the politicians said as much.
 
BrianW said:
Maybe they should have used three-word slogans.
Strength Through Joy.
Work Makes Free.

That sort of thing seems to appeal to a certain audience. 'Stop The Boats'.

It's really an advert for how democracy does not work. People want simple solutions and vote as much on their emotions as on facts. In truth, more on emotions.

I used to know someone who believed the Chinese Communists had killed all pet dogs, and thought, therefore, that Labour might do the same. God help us.
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I know the Chinese killed all the cats.

They couldn't say Mao properly.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I think two factors that pushed the vote towards Remain were the arrogance of the metropolitan elite around the subject (and more generally) and the poor turnout amongst young voters, who will be most affected by this decision.
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This is pretty much bang on, in particular the bit about young voters.

My personal view as a early onset FOC was that the vote should be restricted to people under an arbitrary age (say 50) as they would be the ones to live with the consequences. As it transpired however, those most affected chose not to give a shit by and large
 
Brewster's millions said:
Presumably Labour - by not bothering to have a coherent view on Brexit, chiefly because they couldn’t get their heads around the ‘working class’ - come out of this entirely blameless?

That’s quite the comfort blanket.
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No one comes out blameless who has any culpability for this national disaster.
 
BrianW said:
No one comes out blameless who has any culpability for this national disaster.
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That includes, by the way, all those MPs (including most of all parties) who allowed the Referendum Bill to pass on the basis of an advisory referendum with no specification as to the majority required. Some idiot should have had the wit to discern that a narrow majority was insufficient to carry such a major constitutional change.

J'accuse, in addition, the fools who decided that an advisory referendum should be treated as binding, even though if it had been binding it would almost certainly have been struck down as illegal due to its deficiencies.

But above all, I blame those who used this whole business as a political tool, dividing the country irreparably in the process. All in an attempt to heal a massive division in a certain political party. That worked well, didn't it?
 
BrianW said:
You may recall that Parliament held endless debates, and considered all sorts of potential Brexits, and there was no majority for any option. I believe that Parliament reasonably represented the opinion of the British public at the time.

However, people got pissed off by the talking, and many just wanted it done and were not arsed about the detail. (A weakness of democracy right there.)

This led to people voting for Johnson and his so-called oven-ready deal. Which was full of holes and shite. As was obvious to anyone with a grain of sense. But that was what we got - through impatience.

It is worth noting that Johnson's 'landslide' was based on 43.5% of the vote, due to the nonsense that is FPTP. So the majority were actually against him!

That is how we got landed in this shit.
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The fact they were all discussed an vited on just shows all those options could be discussed and voted in again, no referendums needed, just clear manifesto pledges
 
BrianW said:
That includes, by the way, all those MPs (including most of all parties) who allowed the Referendum Bill to pass on the basis of an advisory referendum with no specification as to the majority required. Some idiot should have had the wit to discern that a narrow majority was insufficient to carry such a major constitutional change.

J'accuse, in addition, the fools who decided that an advisory referendum should be treated as binding, even though if it had been binding it would almost certainly have been struck down as illegal due to its deficiencies.

But above all, I blame those who used this whole business as a political tool, dividing the country irreparably in the process. All in an attempt to heal a massive division in a certain political party. That worked well, didn't it?
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The most critical thing that happened is May triggered Article 50 without any plan or knowledge on the negotiations. She assumed it would give her weight in a subsequent election but what she missed was the demographic of people in the north who wanted Brexit. These are an odd demographic who wanted Brexit but who were also traditional Labour voters.

Following 2017 Labour used their gains from supporting leave to instead enact policies such as pushing a socialist agenda which ultimately nobody cared about above Brexit given the rejection in 2019. Labour basically contributed to the Brexit debate and they were battered in 2019 once they had to declare a position. The Tories meanwhile have done the reverse and contributed nothing to policy for years which has given the mess we have now.

The referendum should of been binding on politicians to act to find the best solution, ie to find the best or the least worst option. It didn't necessarily mean that they had to enact something at any cost even if it was awful which is basically what has happened.

Very few politicians acted in the interests of what leave could mean which is sad given the ambiguity it presented. Anything and everything was possible up until May triggered the process to leave. All in all everything is summed up by selfish acts of self-preservation and power grabbing as opposed to a non-partisan consensus on what was actually best.

The remainers on here constantly remind everyone about what should of been the correct decision but they don't consider that hindsight and consensus was not the political reality at the time. We know that leave has been a disaster but at the time and given the huge array of options on the table it didn't necessarily have to be but it's far too late now.
 
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