How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

Okay then lets say I accept that ( I don’t) , so what’s the answer ? We are down in the shit at some point we. Have to pull ourselves out and progress to repairing the partnership with the EU. What’s that pathway, what’s the new deal? as you seem to be ruling out all options and accepting that we stay up to our necks in the shit deal we negotiated ourselves into.
Unless of course you think this version of Brexit is all wine and roses.
I think the answer is that things are going to have to get even worse for an enough people to push for change.

It’s why I never wanted Brexit to fail. Because if it did then it was always going to be painful. And I never thought there was any chance of it being reversed, and nor should it have been.

I think that would have been even more toxic.
 
I think the answer is that things are going to have to get even worse for an enough people to push for change.

It’s why I never wanted Brexit to fail. Because if it did then it was always going to be painful. And I never thought there was any chance of it being reversed, and nor should it have been.

I think that would have been even more toxic.
The sad thing is as much as I was against Brexit, it didn't have to fail so badly. The referendum was so vague they had a blank slate to find a Brexit that could work. Instead the of using the weight of opinion they let the zealots set the agenda.
 
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The sad thing is as much as I was against Brexit, it didn't have to fail so badly. The referendum was so vague they had a blank slate to find a Brexit that could work. Instead the of using the weight of opinion they let the zealots set the agenda.
This is my huge bugbear. Since we joined, our relationship with the EU was tempered by the significant level of Euroscepticism in the UK population. Personally I wouldn’t have minded if we’d given up the pound when the Euro came into force, but realised how important it was to lots of people to keep it. Our relationship with the EU as member was always informed by the split in public disposition to the EEC/EU.

Then 52% vote to leave (and thereby 48% voted not to) and it was ‘you lost, get over it’ and a hard Brexit to deliver the ‘will of the British people’.

But a hard Brexit didn’t deliver that. A soft Brexit would have far more accurately and fairly represented the will of the British people.

It has divided the country far more than it needed to.

Sadly, this winner takes all approach reflects our wider democratic process and goes a considerable way to explain our enduring decline as a nation.
 
On membership maybe, but as part of the UK is already part of the single market in their brilliant best of both worlds deal as negotiated and trumpeted by this government, with no referendums needed,the rest of us catching up without any referendum shouldn't be too difficult.
Well, when we had the referendum we did have all those Leave Liars assuring us that no-one was talking about leaving the single market, so it shouldn't need a referendum to do what they said a Leave vote meant.
 
This is my huge bugbear. Since we joined, our relationship with the EU was tempered by the significant level of Euroscepticism in the UK population. Personally I wouldn’t have minded if we’d given up the pound when the Euro came into force, but realised how important it was to lots of people to keep it. Our relationship with the EU as member was always informed by the split in public disposition to the EEC/EU.

Then 52% vote to leave (and thereby 48% voted not to) and it was ‘you lost, get over it’ and a hard Brexit to deliver the ‘will of the British people’.

But a hard Brexit didn’t deliver that. A soft Brexit would have far more accurately and fairly represented the will of the British people.

It has divided the country far more than it needed to.

Sadly, this winner takes all approach reflects our wider democratic process and goes a considerable way to explain our enduring decline as a nation.
It doesn't reflect our wider democratic process. It reflects voting for Tories and charlatans and Tory charlatans.
 
Okay then lets say I accept that ( I don’t) , so what’s the answer ? We are down in the shit at some point we. Have to pull ourselves out and progress to repairing the partnership with the EU. What’s that pathway, what’s the new deal? as you seem to be ruling out all options and accepting that we stay up to our necks in the shit deal we negotiated ourselves into.
Unless of course you think this version of Brexit is all wine and roses.
You obviously don’t have to accept my word for it regarding NI, but I’m afraid it’s an unfortunate truth that NI isn’t in the single market proper, and that it’s ‘membership’ only relates to goods and customs procedures.

NI only enjoys this limited access to EU goods markets because it/NI accepts ECJ jurisdiction over these issues - as part of the broader withdrawal agreement - which mainland UK couldn’t unilaterally adopt. So replicating NI without a treaty change is a complete non-starter for mainland UK.

I don’t think the current version of Brexit is all wine and roses, but I have always believed that once there was a vote to leave, the UK would have little choice but to end up roughly in the current situation.

EEA membership would leave the UK with zero influence over the regulations which govern the overwhelming majority of its economy, which is a frankly ludicrous situation for a major economy and not a realistic solution. Plus the EEA doesn’t cover the customs union, so it’s incomplete. The current situation could in theory be improved at the margin by bilateral agreements on specific issues. But you could easily exaggerate the scope for this to happen and we aren’t going to get a major re-write of the withdrawal agreement itself.

The unique issue of Brexit is that the UK and EU were perfectly aligned at the point of the withdrawal agreement. As the UK signs trade agreements with third countries, that situation will change and make realignment with the EU harder and present more trade barriers with the EU.

Presumably the first step will be for the government of the day to no longer pursue these third country agreements, before a more serious political discussion starts around rejoining the EU. That’s a political process that will probably take many years and a variety of factors will influence whether it happens or not. But my view is if you don’t like the current situation the only durable change is to re-join the EU proper, and if you don’t want to rejoin the EU then where we are now is basically it.
 
Leave Liars assuring us that no-one was talking about leaving the single market

No of course they didn't.





The talk was about freedom of movement and how that could be curtailed, and the only way to do so was to leave the single market.

Shows how incompetent remain were because they obviously failed to convince the electorate.
 
You may recall that Parliament held endless debates, and considered all sorts of potential Brexits, and there was no majority for any option. I believe that Parliament reasonably represented the opinion of the British public at the time.

However, people got pissed off by the talking, and many just wanted it done and were not arsed about the detail. (A weakness of democracy right there.)

This led to people voting for Johnson and his so-called oven-ready deal. Which was full of holes and shite. As was obvious to anyone with a grain of sense. But that was what we got - through impatience.

It is worth noting that Johnson's 'landslide' was based on 43.5% of the vote, due to the nonsense that is FPTP. So the majority were actually against him!

That is how we got landed in this shit.
 
No of course they didn't.





The talk was about freedom of movement and how that could be curtailed, and the only way to do so was to leave the single market.

Shows how incompetent remain were because they obviously failed to convince the electorate.


Two people on the fringes of the campaign.

Do you not think it's telling that the first clip is in France 24 rather than our domestic media?

Leave made the most noise and told the most lies. It's far easier to achieve success doing that than telling hard truths.
 

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