How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Vic]

Depends. The reality is that we are finding it difficult to justify the expense of a full scale independent force.

At some point our armed forces will be too small to be a significant force on its own. But as part of Europe then there is only really 3 super powers in the world. The US, Europe and China.

It's going to be politically difficult to admit that but it's true.

How can it be politically difficult to admit the obvious?

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

How can it be politically difficult to admit the obvious?

It's well proven voters like it when you tell them what they want to hear.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

It is. of course, much more complicated than that. Not everything is the fault of Brexit. Hell, even Brexit wasn't the fault of Brexit. It was just political incompetence, pure and simple. No problem having a vote on it, but an enormously serious political and economic change with inevitable decades-long economic consequences should never have been decided on the basis of a simple majority. Even the PL aren't stupid enough to do that.

They may have thought they were going to win, but for God's sake they should have taken it more seriously. I mean, think of the children .... it was always going to be extraordinarily destabilising. So people just have to suck it up and wait for the economic consequences to settle sometime in the next two decades. Resolve the Brexit mess? As you say: hard work and hard decisions.

They didnt expect to win as shown by the way Johnson and Gove shat themselves when it turned out they had. Youre right about the rest. They didnt plan because they had no plan, they were just stirring shit. And then we got this self inflicted wound as a consequence.

 

[halfcenturyup]

UKAF???

RAF?

UK Armed Forces? Is that a thing?

Edit: Probably not a great acronym in hindsight, but it was late and I was too tired to type it all out :)

 

[halfcenturyup]

Depends. The reality is that we are finding it difficult to justify the expense of a full scale independent force.

At some point our armed forces will be too small to be a significant force on its own. But as part of Europe then there is only really 3 super powers in the world. The US, Europe and China.

It's going to be politically difficult to admit that but it's true.

I suppose the question is whether it needs to be fully integrated or whether it could be something like a scaled down NATO without the US. UEFA or the ESL, I guess. If it's NATO-light, Brexit is irrelevant.

And you forgot Russia? If it wasn't for Russia, Europe wouldn't be scrambling around worrying about Trump/NATO in the first place.

 

[Vic]

I suppose the question is whether it needs to be fully integrated or whether it could be something like a scaled down NATO without the US. UEFA or the ESL, I guess. If it's NATO-light, Brexit is irrelevant.

And you forgot Russia? If it wasn't for Russia, Europe wouldn't be scrambling around worrying about Trump/NATO in the first place.

If it wasn't for Donald "I'd let Putin do what he wants" Trump would we be worried about Russia?

 

[halfcenturyup]

If it wasn't for Donald "I'd let Putin do what he wants" Trump would we be worried about Russia?

If Europe had any sense, yes. Strategically, what sense does it make to basically outsource your defence to what, hopefully, will be an economic competitor at some stage. Much more reason why Europe should be worried about Russia than China in military terms. Even when Putin is gone, and hopefully replaced with a reformist, you wouldn't bet against another lunatic rising up in the future.

 

[Vic]

If Europe had any sense, yes. Strategically, what sense does it make to basically outsource your defence to what, hopefully, will be an economic competitor at some stage. Much more reason why Europe should be worried about Russia than China in military terms. Even when Putin is gone, and hopefully replaced with a reformist, you wouldn't bet against another lunatic rising up in the future.

That's happened here, and in America.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

If it wasn't for Donald "I'd let Putin do what he wants" Trump would we be worried about Russia?

Have you not been worried about them since the invasion? Will Europe not support Ukraine without US leadership?

Will NATO, sans US, really engage in WWIII over the Baltics?

Personally, I think (and I think Putin thinks), that liberal European democracies have zero appetite for war and would be unwilling to do what was necessary if Russia walked into the Baltics. Accordingly, if he can raze most of Ukraine, he has a pre-death window of opportunity we can not allow…with or without US assistance.

Lastly, I’m not convinced Trump could get the U.S. out of NATO, politically or logistically, even if he tried. Four years isn’t enough time to unwind a relationship that involves nukes, bases, ports, and the manpower that would have to be moved. If the U.S. is good at anything, gridlock is a speciality!

All that said, Trump must be stopped at all cost.

 

[halfcenturyup]

That's happened here, and in America.

Probably. Which bit?