How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

The essential problem was a fundamental conflict between Leave voters.

1. The Lexit brigade wanted (effectively) more socialism and felt the EU prevented such ideas as nationalisation. Northerners may be socially conservative but they tend to want more public expenditure, especially in deprived areas. This was why Johnson started the 'levelling up' agenda. These voters (in so far as their views are developed) see the EU as a neo-liberal conspiracy against the working class.

2. The right-wing Brexit brigade wanted (much) less regulation and 'bureaucracy'. Those of them who are not disaster capitalists are (broadly) libertarians. They hate the state, or the EU, making rules that stop them from exploiting workers. They see the EU as 'socialist' and indeed excessively so.

These visions are utterly incompatible. No form of Brexit could possibly satisfy both factions. Any more than one woman can marry two men. You could spend eternity discussing options, and this fact would not change. The problem was that many people simply did not think things through. They thought Brexit would magically resolve all the deep-seated problems this country has. Unfortunately, life is not so simple. It is not like a fairy tale where someone waves a magic wand and all is well. But when you are desperate, you may well grasp at any hope.

This is why I fear for the future. The next 'magic solution' might be some bunch of far-right nutters like Reform. Or even worse.
 
BrianW said:
The essential problem was a fundamental conflict between Leave voters.

1. The Lexit brigade wanted (effectively) more socialism and felt the EU prevented such ideas as nationalisation. Northerners may be socially conservative but they tend to want more public expenditure, especially in deprived areas. This was why Johnson started the 'levelling up' agenda. These voters (in so far as their views are developed) see the EU as a neo-liberal conspiracy against the working class.

2. The right-wing Brexit brigade wanted (much) less regulation and 'bureaucracy'. Those of them who are not disaster capitalists are (broadly) libertarians. They hate the state, or the EU, making rules that stop them from exploiting workers. They see the EU as 'socialist' and indeed excessively so.

These visions are utterly incompatible. No form of Brexit could possibly satisfy both factions. Any more than one woman can marry two men. You could spend eternity discussing options, and this fact would not change. The problem was that many people simply did not think things through. They thought Brexit would magically resolve all the deep-seated problems this country has. Unfortunately, life is not so simple. It is not like a fairy tale where someone waves a magic wand and all is well. But when you are desperate, you may well grasp at any hope.

This is why I fear for the future. The next 'magic solution' might be some bunch of far-right nutters like Reform. Or even worse.
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The problem is that the issue became so politically charged that nobody actually cared about what was best which also satisfied the result. People actually didn't need to think things through because the referendum placed no such burden on people, ironing out the end result came down to the politicians.

Remainers actually had an advantage in that they knew the end state of remain which they still sold poorly. No leave voter could have known the end state of what leave really meant so how could you place such a burden on them? Many voted for leave on the basis of what was sold or they probably would of voted leave anyway, it's hard to argue why this is wrong. It's like arguing for rejoin now because rejoin isn't remain, it's undefined and unknown.

It's quite obvious that it was impossible to not leave the EU in some form given the result of the referendum. However, with that there were alternatives and possible mitigation but nobody argued for them. Remainers are still arguing today why we shouldn't have left and we're now 3 years out. Anyone could of come to the table and argued for a soft option but well that failed miserably.

Because leave wanted leave and remain wanted remain, the politicians had very little flexibility to argue for anything else. The only option for salvage and mitigation was for the political parties to work together and that was never ever going to happen. This was mainly because one party was on fire and the other was busy ignoring Brexit whilst trying to implement a socialist empire that nobody really wanted.

Our political system and political events therefore caused this scenario but it's events that made it far worse than it should of been. The decision to start the timed process to leave the EU without any consensus on what leave meant was probably the worst political decision in 100 years. To start that process and then later lose an election which removed all authority within that process was a complete disaster.
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
I think you are absolutely right about this. My girlfriend was in marketing in London at the time of the vote (well before I met her) and was genuinely shocked at the outcome. Realised she’d been living in a bit of a metropolitan bubble

I think two factors that pushed the vote towards Remain were the arrogance of the metropolitan elite around the subject (and more generally) and the poor turnout amongst young voters, who will be most affected by this decision.

I remember that dreadful member of the audience on QT before the vote who said ‘who will we get to serve us in Pret?’ If we left. It was a real ‘let them eat cake’ quote and was the sort of thing that would have made people on the fence go ‘fuck it’.

I was flirting online with a woman from London around that time, and was going to meet up with her, and then the day after the vote she sent a message to her whole address book on WhatsApp demanding another referendum - and I remember looking at the message and thinking: that attitude is exactly why Remain lost.

I never met up with her, obviously.
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Has the conversation actually moved on in the last 7 years? It’s just a merry go round of continually patronising or insulting the leave voters.
 
metalblue said:
Has the conversation actually moved on in the last 7 years? It’s just a merry go round of continually patronising or insulting the leave voters.
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In here ? No, but then there’s no reason why it should those that post in here are pretty entrenched. Nor does that matter much,we’re an odd minority. What does matter is those in government, haven’t shifted or adapted to the realities of brexit and are ideologically committed to an uncompromising brexit. I would say the opposition haven’t shifted much either but IMO they have and gone the wrong direction.
 
metalblue said:
Has the conversation actually moved on in the last 7 years? It’s just a merry go round of continually patronising or insulting the leave voters.
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I doubt very much that the thoughts on this political forum match anything in RL, they will be shouting at buses for the next 20 years mate ;)
 
BrianW said:
The essential problem was a fundamental conflict between Leave voters.

1. The Lexit brigade wanted (effectively) more socialism and felt the EU prevented such ideas as nationalisation. Northerners may be socially conservative but they tend to want more public expenditure, especially in deprived areas. This was why Johnson started the 'levelling up' agenda. These voters (in so far as their views are developed) see the EU as a neo-liberal conspiracy against the working class.

2. The right-wing Brexit brigade wanted (much) less regulation and 'bureaucracy'. Those of them who are not disaster capitalists are (broadly) libertarians. They hate the state, or the EU, making rules that stop them from exploiting workers. They see the EU as 'socialist' and indeed excessively so.

These visions are utterly incompatible. No form of Brexit could possibly satisfy both factions. Any more than one woman can marry two men. You could spend eternity discussing options, and this fact would not change. The problem was that many people simply did not think things through. They thought Brexit would magically resolve all the deep-seated problems this country has. Unfortunately, life is not so simple. It is not like a fairy tale where someone waves a magic wand and all is well. But when you are desperate, you may well grasp at any hope.

This is why I fear for the future. The next 'magic solution' might be some bunch of far-right nutters like Reform. Or even worse.
Click to expand...

not sure you can says there's a conflict when one of your groups has 99% majority
 
blueparrot said:
In here ? No, but then there’s no reason why it should those that post in here are pretty entrenched. Nor does that matter much,we’re an odd minority. What does matter is those in government, haven’t shifted or adapted to the realities of brexit and are ideologically committed to an uncompromising brexit. I would say the opposition haven’t shifted much either but IMO they have and gone the wrong direction.
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I don’t see any political shift towards rejoining in the next 15 years, the government of the day will want to see if Brexit can be a made to work successfully or at least a zero sum game. That thinking will change if there is a significant disconnect between prosperity of EU countries and the UK. Not 3 or 4% but 15-20%+
 
metalblue said:
I don’t see any political shift towards rejoining in the next 15 years, the government of the day will want to see if Brexit can be a made to work successfully or at least a zero sum game. That thinking will change if there is a significant disconnect between prosperity of EU countries and the UK. Not 3 or 4% but 15-20%+
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I don’t see sny shift to rejoining anytime soon either, though if we did vote I think it would go that way. What I do see is a shift towards chipping away at the seperation, rejoining some of its institutions by stealth.Just as we’ve rejoined the science research program.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Labour win that at some point we rejoin the Dublin agreement in some form.
 
blueparrot said:
I don’t see sny shift to rejoining anytime soon either, though if we did vote I think it would go that way. What I do see is a shift towards chipping away at the seperation, rejoining some of its institutions by stealth.Just as we’ve rejoined the science research program.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Labour win that at some point we rejoin the Dublin agreement in some form.
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Yes I can see the institutions part - it makes sense.
 
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