How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[inbetween]

Yes, it was! The EU was conceived as a way to prevent war (political alignment) through economics and trade.

"[t]he coming together of the countries of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany ... the solidarity in production thus established will make it plain that any war between France and Germany becomes not merely unthinkable, but materially impossible."

Schuman declaration, generally regarded as the founding text of the EU.

1950.

Schuman Declaration - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Did this truly mean a £1tn budget political behemoth with its own lawmaking bodies, courts, parliament, maybe one day its own military, its own anthem and currency?

The main reason why peace exists in Europe is not because of the common market or EU coming to exist post-WW2. It is because the main threat posed to Europe was the USSR/Russia and that threat has always been kept at arms length by the creation of NATO and expansion of nuclear weapons.

Again, I am not against the EU, I am just skeptical of its ability to do exactly what it was created for and if it can't do that then who can even question it? The proof is in the pudding because despite it being a trading bloc its economic and monetary policy is a disaster and has been for 20 years.

The European economy is now dying in the midst of German economic failure so what is the real benefit of showing solidarity or being further integrated into misery and demise? Or is the argument really that we're always going to be part of Europe else sink on our own ship so let's jump onto their ship and sink with them instead?

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I was genuinely wondering how the Pro EU group were gonna proceed following a change of government and how they will sell it to the naysayers.

I realise some people are affected, but for the vast majority there doesn't really seem to be any positive or negative effects from Brexit. I've personally hardly noticed it's happened.

 

[hilts]

I realise some people are affected, but for the vast majority there doesn't really seem to be any positive or negative effects from Brexit. I've personally hardly noticed it's happened.

Same here fella but Starmer has said closer ties and I haven't seen much on what that will be or how will it be sold. Unfortunately whatever it is there will be Unfortunately much more division in the country.
Not sure many have the appetite for it.

 

[hampshireblue]

It's really not but nice try.

And your assessment is?

 

[blueinsa]

I realise some people are affected, but for the vast majority there doesn't really seem to be any positive or negative effects from Brexit. I've personally hardly noticed it's happened.

Agree.

Personally it’s had little to no affect and Covid, Ukraine etc has had far more negative impact.

Work is an issue and dealing with suppliers in Europe has become far harder than it was or should be, although not impossible as some would want you to believe on here.

I regret my vote for that reason and the fact it caused so much division amongst us but I still hold our politicians responsible and believe we should and could have had a far better outcome had we had better leadership.

The future is pretty clear. We are not going back in so focus should be on making the best of it and not harping back 10 years with the same old argument imo.

 

[blueparrot]

I realise some people are affected, but for the vast majority there doesn't really seem to be any positive or negative effects from Brexit. I've personally hardly noticed it's happened.

Think it’s a lot more than some, but to say how many would be a complete guess, so I’ll guess Lets’s pick a number from the air though just going off people I’m friendly with, 20%. So going with 20% are suffering or having difficulties from the previous governments agreement ,and as far as I know nobody has gained anything positive from it, though suppose some might have,.Surely improving the agreement with closer EU co operation and alignment has to be a good thing. At least this government seem to agree.

 

[BlueHammer85]

I'm not actually sure I've ever seen it. The premise put me off originally.

I’d say it’s definitely worth a watch.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I realise some people are affected, but for the vast majority there doesn't really seem to be any positive or negative effects from Brexit. I've personally hardly noticed it's happened.

It now takes twice as long for my B&B Italia furniture to arrive.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

The main reason why peace exists in Europe is not because of the common market or EU coming to exist post-WW2. It is because the main threat posed to Europe was the USSR/Russia and that threat has always been kept at arms length by the creation of NATO and expansion of nuclear weapons.

It's an opinion. Both are very relevant IMV. But regardless, the reason the EU was set up was for peace.

The European economy is now dying in the midst of German economic failure so what is the real benefit of showing solidarity or being further integrated into misery and demise? Or is the argument really that we're always going to be part of Europe else sink on our own ship so let's jump onto their ship and sink with them instead?

Ridiculous hyperbole apart, we don't have a choice. We are geographically and economically part of Europe regardless of rhetoric. Deliberately driving a trade and political wedge between us exacerbates the effects of their "failure", it does not compensate for it.

 

[hilts]

And your assessment is?

I don't frequent the thread much but when I have and in the real world outside I have yet to see anyone mention roaring success, in fact roaring success is not used much at all at the moment.
The thread is mainly inhabited by posters forever quoting economic news. I'm not sure who their audience is tbh.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

The thread is mainly inhabited by posters forever quoting economic news. I'm not sure who their audience is tbh.

Each other ffs!

 

[hilts]

Think it’s a lot more than some, but to say how many would be a complete guess, so I’ll guess Lets’s pick a number from the air though just going off people I’m friendly with, 20%. So going with 20% are suffering or having difficulties from the previous governments agreement ,and as far as I know nobody has gained anything positive from it, though suppose some might have,.Surely improving the agreement with closer EU co operation and alignment has to be a good thing. At least this government seem to agree.

20% is a bad guess unless your circle is unusually EU reliant.
Industries that were reliant on EU workers saw increased wages so saying nobody is incorrect.

Anyhow arguing over something that has already happened is pointless.

 

[blueparrot]

20% is a bad guess unless your circle is unusually EU reliant.
Industries that were reliant on EU workers saw increased wages so saying nobody is incorrect.

Anyhow arguing over something that has already happened is pointless.

I know a lot of small business owners, food producers as part of my own business circle. As part of my group of friends a few musicians. So maybe 20% is high or maybe not said it was a guess.
Doesn’t change the point though. I, and going off polls, the majority in the country think we’d be better off with closer alignment in many ways from business, to science, climate, defence and security, leisure, which I think we’ll get. Do you think we’ll be better or worse off?

 

[hilts]

I know a lot of small business owners, food producers as part of my own business circle. As part of my group of friends a few musicians. So maybe 20% is high or maybe not said it was a guess.
Doesn’t change the point though. I, and going off polls, the majority in the country think we’d be better off with closer alignment in many ways from business, to science, climate, defence and security, leisure, which I think we’ll get. Do you think we’ll be better or worse off?

I have zero problems with co-operation with the EU. It will be interesting to see how things pan out over the course of this parliament.

 

[Vic]

I agree but that's not the point I'm making, my point is about the fundamental of having to join the EU as a political organisation as opposed to a trading bloc. If this was the case then a simple trading relationship would be enough? Political alliance is not why the common market was initially created.

Why do we need a closer military cooperation with the EU? Remember that the EU controls no army, has no generals and has no military capability whatosever so today it offers absolutely nothing in military terms. Why is it required at all other than to enact a power grab so that rather troubingly the EU can exert its own foreign policy?

We already cooperate very easily with other countries militarily and we have done so for nearly 100 years, a political alliance honestly is not required.

Political alliance was there from the start.

....DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples, DECIDED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action in eliminating the barriers which divide Europe...

 

[inbetween]

Political alliance was there from the start.

....DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples, DECIDED to ensure the economic and social progress of their countries by common action in eliminating the barriers which divide Europe...

Yes and the crux of Brexit is that the UK electorate has always rejected ever closer union and this was reinstated at the referendum so I just ask you how could we therefore possibly remain within it?

I'm not too interested in what you say about the intentions of its foundation because you're basically expressing the view of Europeans and European politicians but it isn't the UK view. I am British, I only care about what the UK intended for the EU given we were a founding member and we never intended for it to become what it is today. The British seemingly support a more conservative and smaller state and this is the opposite of what the EU is.

I think many on here miss that there are few who believe in this further integration of everything. That view isn't representative of the UK electorate where the majority are leavers, skeptics or they just don't care. You can see that in the energy for European elections where turnouts were always well below 40%.

As a result, whatever the EU was or is, the argument to remain a part of it was lost and whatever the EU's founding principles are they just aren't reflected in the UK. So I again can only ask how could we ever remain a part of something that we fundamentally disagreed with and largely couldn't change?

 

[bluethrunthru]

Yes and the crux of Brexit is that the UK electorate has always rejected ever closer union

where is your proof of that? 67% of those who voted chose YES to remain in the common market in 1975. Oh of course then we were on our uppers financially fucked and struggling so needed help unlike now when we have left when everything is ros............ no wait a minute

 

[Dage]

@inbetween: What you think of the EU is just what British politicians told you for decades to distract from own failures. It's always easy to put fingers at the EU. Doesn't make it true whatsoever.

 

[Vic]

Yes and the crux of Brexit is that the UK electorate has always rejected ever closer union and this was reinstated at the referendum so I just ask you how could we therefore possibly remain within it?

I'm not too interested in what you say about the intentions of its foundation because you're basically expressing the view of Europeans and European politicians but it isn't the UK view. I am British, I only care about what the UK intended for the EU given we were a founding member and we never intended for it to become what it is today. The British seemingly support a more conservative and smaller state and this is the opposite of what the EU is.

I think many on here miss that there are few who believe in this further integration of everything. That view isn't representative of the UK electorate where the majority are leavers, skeptics or they just don't care. You can see that in the energy for European elections where turnouts were always well below 40%.

As a result, whatever the EU was or is, the argument to remain a part of it was lost and whatever the EU's founding principles are they just aren't reflected in the UK. So I again can only ask how could we ever remain a part of something that we fundamentally disagreed with and largely couldn't change?

That argument falls at the start. If "ever closer union" was in the original treaty, then the first referendum (endorsing membership) obviously means the UK electorate has not always rejected ever closer union. Sorry, but I didn't read the rest as it was based on a false premise, so, like your good self, "I'm not too interested in what you say about the intentions of its foundation".

 

[inbetween]

where is your proof of that? 67% of those who voted chose YES to remain in the common market in 1975. Oh of course then we were on our uppers financially fucked and struggling so needed help unlike now when we have left when everything is ros............ no wait a minute

They voted for what you have just said, a common market. A common market of independent nation states, not a federalised collection of vassel states, the latter I say only because what else can 'ever closer union' mean? Why did the electorate then continually vote in Thatcher who spent years restraining European federalists?

You say 'unlike now when everything is rosey' and I'm assuming you're talking about economies in which case this is a stupid comparison when you actually look at how the European economy is doing.

Germany is the largest economy and growth is almost non-existent? Spain and Italy's economies are smaller than they were in 2008! The fact is the European economy has been on its arse for nearly 20 years. As I've been saying for days, we can join the single market or leave it but actually it doesn't seem like it really matters.