Irish Current Affairs

AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Id say yes, smuggling and im sure rackateering too...."protection money" from local businesses.

Lets just say the possibility of borders isnt exactly appealing for smugglers...im sure they are prepared to go to great lengths to protect their "business"
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Interesting, I never really considered what effect borders would have on criminality.

I'm sure they will find a way around it though.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Id say its the same up here...no support for republican violence...the confusing situation is that of loyalists. Not exactly renowned for the "terrorism skills", but they must feel very isolated and forgotten...the UK/GB they strive for seems to be disowning them, they feel VERY let down by the Tories....they are supporters of Brexit, but its cutting them off from the UK.
They believe they have physically and violently fought for the UK during the troubles...they have killed and been killed for that....and now they are being traded off.

Its a very different conundrum
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It is indeed. You have a fair grasp at this stage of my opinion on the history of the last 100 years or so.
I see a rushed conclusion (for want of a better word), to the NI problem, sic, from the Tories and the opportunism that will ensue from Sinn Fein, to pursue their political aims, as being similar to where we were back in the early part of the last century before the first world war postponed the Government of Ireland Act in 1914.
Unionism was very strong in the North then and was willing to arm itself to the teeth and cause civil war if necessary to reject democratically voted on and passed act.
Forced into a referendum now, with the perception of being thrown under the bus of Brexit, is unionism going to feel aggrieved. Most definitely.
They'd probably morally be on a sounder footing too, in my view, than they were then.

Would it have the same conviction now? I would say not. Would unionism support the same sort of paramilitary campaign now? Is there there anything more organised going on in the background of the shadier side of Sinn Fein up north, that would suggest their involvement in these kind of recent finds. Like indications of where we can take this in case the Tories need reminding?

I'd love to hear your take on what the unionism feels about a referendum.
Is your perceptive view of both history and future prevalent in your community.
Is there a majority moderate attitude towards unity and whatever NI's future will look like for the next generation.
I know your own feelings on the matter are similar to my own. Just wondering how prevalent that attitude is.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
It is indeed. You have a fair grasp at this stage of my opinion on the history of the last 100 years or so.
I see a rushed conclusion (for want of a better word), to the NI problem, sic, from the Tories and the opportunism that will ensue from Sinn Fein, to pursue their political aims, as being similar to where we were back in the early part of the last century before the first world war postponed the Government of Ireland Act in 1914.
Unionism was very strong in the North then and was willing to arm itself to the teeth and cause civil war if necessary to reject democratically voted on and passed act.
Forced into a referendum now, with the perception of being thrown under the bus of Brexit, is unionism going to feel aggrieved. Most definitely.
They'd probably morally be on a sounder footing too, in my view, than they were then.

Would it have the same conviction now? I would say not. Would unionism support the same sort of paramilitary campaign now? Is there there anything more organised going on in the background of the shadier side of Sinn Fein up north, that would suggest their involvement in these kind of recent finds. Like indications of where we can take this in case the Tories need reminding?

I'd love to hear your take on what the unionism feels about a referendum.
Is your perceptive view of both history and future prevalent in your community.
Is there a majority moderate attitude towards unity and whatever NI's future will look like for the next generation.
I know your own feelings on the matter are similar to my own. Just wondering how prevalent that attitude is.
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An I right in thinking that the Sinn Fein version of a referendum is for an All-Ireland one? That would be a total non-starter for Unionists I’d suggest.
 
mancity2012_eamo said:
I'd love to hear your take on what the unionism feels about a referendum.
Is your perceptive view of both history and future prevalent in your community.
Is there a majority moderate attitude towards unity and whatever NI's future will look like for the next generation.
I know your own feelings on the matter are similar to my own. Just wondering how prevalent that attitude is.
Click to expand...

Thats some meaty questions right there!!

Im probably not the best example of a typical Belfast Unionist tbf...firstly, i wouldnt hold the title of unionist as such, nor nationalist...im one of those annoying middle ground people...i can see benefits in both. I dont feel the need to "fight" for one side even though my background would suggest i have Union jack underpants! I also have a catholic wife and 2 catholic kids (who go/went to an integrated primary school and then "protestant" grammar schools LOL)

To generalise, judging by my social media connections...those who i would consider a Unionist or Loyalist are pro-Brexit, they are also generally working class and (obviously) protestant. Good decent people too, i wouldnt be connected to them otherwise. Those i would consider nationalist are pro-Remain, they are also generally working class and catholic. Interestingly, those i consider to be moderate (Alliance/Green/Lib Dem type) would all be pro-Remain as well...id say thats a mix of working class, middle class, catholic and protestant. Cant say i know a catholic Brexit supporter

I actually cringe when i type that...i hate merging religion with political view...its not so cut and dry anymore...protestant doesnt always mean unionist, admittedly catholic does tend to mean nationalist.


I think my generation and older (im 44) are pretty savvy when it comes to history...on "both sides of the divide"...it kinda defines us. I dont think the majority of these generations have a very positive view of the future...it feels very uncertain. I appreciate that socially i have quite a distinct "bubble", including the interactions with my kids and the younger generations....but my experience is that younger generations dont care so much for the past as we would...and are very much about the future....hence why the vast majority of youngsters are (rightly or wrongly) pro Remain. However, if you look at working class, lower socioeconomic areas, their opinions harden....harder line Loyalists, harder line Republicans....but i guess thats just society anyway.


I dont actually think there is a majority in favour of unity, but yes i think there is a more moderate attitude to the possibility....there would probably be more "maybes" now. And those maybes are due to a change or softening of the opinions of the nos. This seems a silly thing to say, but those in favour of unity wont have changed their minds, but some of those previously against unity will have softened their opinions...in part due to Brexit but id also like to think in part to the peace process.
I think for younger people, their future is more concerned about access to Europe and the rest of the world than whether will they be part of a united Ireland.


Hard to write all of these answers, im in work...lol...shh, dont tell. We need to continue this over copious pints of stout!

Look, this is just my thoughts...whilst i lived in difficult times, in working class area as a child....ive grown up and married and raised kids in a very different time and social circle....largely directed by the results of the peace process. If the troubles hadnt ended i wouldnt have married (never mind met) my wife, i wouldnt have my kids, i wouldnt live where i live and i doubt i would have the friendship circle i have now.


This stuff is hard to explain to people in England, i know as ive tried and failed with my own family!! We had towns within cities that you couldnt go into..."themmuns" were people who lived in those areas, who you were scared of, that you would never meet or socialise with....its not like sharing a city with Utd fans, who are different, but they are still around you and in your family....these were people we were seperated from by large concrete walls
 
Ardwick Green Blue said:
An I right in thinking that the Sinn Fein version of a referendum is for an All-Ireland one? That would be a total non-starter for Unionists I’d suggest.
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And i dont think it would succeed....there would need to be some sort of powersharing, similar to our current devolved government here in NI...but with direction and rule from both Dublin and London
 
So this updated....the plan WAS Brexit related and the plan was to explode on a boat between NI and GB

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/...kCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar


Brexit attack could have caused 'death and very serious injury' says PSNI
The PSNI held a media conference on Thursday afternoon


A bomb found attached to a HGV vehicle in Co Armagh was designed to explode on a ferry to Scotland around the time of Brexit.

The device, thought to have been planted by the Continuity IRA, was found under the vehicle in Silverwood Industrial Estate in Lurgan.

It is believed the intention was for the vehicle to make its way to Belfast harbour to board a ferry bound for Scotland.

Assistant Chief Constable George Clarke said: "It was a viable device... and that means it could have caused death and very serious injury and harm to members of the public."

He added: "They did intend, we believe in what they've said, that the device would explode around the time the UK left the EU."

A media outlet received two calls, one on Friday, January 31, with little detail, and a further call on Monday with more information.

ACC Clarke said: "On Friday evening a call was made to a media outlet indicating that a device had been left in a trailer in Belfast docks.

"It's very important to note that that information was exceptionally sparse and limited and there was a police response in relation to that.

"Subsequent to that call, on Monday evening, a further call was received by a media outlet. That call contained substantially more detail.

"It gave us the detail of a commercial haulage company and it indicated that the device had been left on a vehicle or on the trailer connected to that company and the intention had been for that device to explode on Friday evening at around the time the United Kingdom left the EU.

"The device was located late Monday, early Tuesday and a substantial clearance and investigative operation was commenced and carried out at that time.

"Our information is that is that that lorry at no time left the yard. The second call indicates an intention on the part of the bombers that it would have travelled to Belfast.

"But we very clearly believe that the vehicle did not leave Lurgan."

UUP MLA Doug Beattie described the incident as "sinister".

He said: "This was no minor device, this was a very deliberate attempt to cause an explosion on a ferry, and given the inherent instability of these devices, it could easily have detonated in the lorry’s yard, on the M1, in the middle of Belfast or on a ferry itself in the middle of the Irish Sea.

"Without a doubt it was an attempt to isolate Northern Ireland from the rest of Great Britain by creating a threat to on-board ferry traffic.

"Had it exploded on the ferry it could have created a fireball that would have taken the route of least resistance and spread through open spaces, walkways and corridors to engulf anyone in its path be they men, women or children.

"Had this been on a ferry from Dover to Calais the UK Government would be mobilising every asset possible to track down the perpetrators; I call on them to do so with this, and treat it as the National Security threat which it is."

The SDLP's Doleres Kelly condemned those responsible.

She said: "I want to pay tribute to the PSNI for their work to secure this device. Officers continue to put themselves in harm’s way to protect our communities from the serious threat posed by violent dissident republicans.

"Those behind this plot were intent on causing maximum devastation and killing innocent people. We cannot become complacent about the threat that dissident republicans pose and their desire to kill people in our communities in the pursuit of an outdated ideology that has been rejected by the people of Ireland.

"If anyone has information about this attempted bombing, I would encourage them to come forward to police as soon as possible. It is vital that we bring these criminal gangs to justice before they kill someone else."
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Yeah basically if there is a desire in the north for one...then it could be called....the trigger is gauging the desire for one in the North first
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My feeling (which is probably totally wrong) is that although most people in the South might say they want an unified Ireland they might not be so keen if there was a vote on it anytime soon.

There are two reasons I think this. Firstly would be the potential for violence by disaffected Loyalists who still probably have the means to do it and secondly for economic reasons.
 
Ardwick Green Blue said:
My feeling (which is probably totally wrong) is that although most people in the South might say they want an unified Ireland they might not be so keen if there was a vote on it anytime soon.

There are two reasons I think this. Firstly would be the potential for violence by disaffected Loyalists who still probably have the means to do it and secondly for economic reasons.
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i think thats pretty accurate...but bear in mind, Loyalist paramilitaries arent renowned for their "Terrorism skillzzzz"...and there has been research into the potential economic impact on a united ireland, and its generally positive....there would be international interest in it succeeding. But its why to just cut NI off from the UK and the next day there is a 32 county unified ireland will never happen. If things are done at the right pace, with the right mindset it could be a political and economic win-win for all involved.

IMO, the harshness, the divisiveness and ill thought out nature of Brexit truly damages the likelihood of a decent out come to reunification
 
aguero93:20 said:
Bloody amateurs.
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I properly expected it to turn out to be loyalists for that very reason :-)

hqdefault.jpg
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Thats some meaty questions right there!!

Im probably not the best example of a typical Belfast Unionist tbf...firstly, i wouldnt hold the title of unionist as such, nor nationalist...im one of those annoying middle ground people...i can see benefits in both. I dont feel the need to "fight" for one side even though my background would suggest i have Union jack underpants! I also have a catholic wife and 2 catholic kids (who go/went to an integrated primary school and then "protestant" grammar schools LOL)

To generalise, judging by my social media connections...those who i would consider a Unionist or Loyalist are pro-Brexit, they are also generally working class and (obviously) protestant. Good decent people too, i wouldnt be connected to them otherwise. Those i would consider nationalist are pro-Remain, they are also generally working class and catholic. Interestingly, those i consider to be moderate (Alliance/Green/Lib Dem type) would all be pro-Remain as well...id say thats a mix of working class, middle class, catholic and protestant. Cant say i know a catholic Brexit supporter

I actually cringe when i type that...i hate merging religion with political view...its not so cut and dry anymore...protestant doesnt always mean unionist, admittedly catholic does tend to mean nationalist.


I think my generation and older (im 44) are pretty savvy when it comes to history...on "both sides of the divide"...it kinda defines us. I dont think the majority of these generations have a very positive view of the future...it feels very uncertain. I appreciate that socially i have quite a distinct "bubble", including the interactions with my kids and the younger generations....but my experience is that younger generations dont care so much for the past as we would...and are very much about the future....hence why the vast majority of youngsters are (rightly or wrongly) pro Remain. However, if you look at working class, lower socioeconomic areas, their opinions harden....harder line Loyalists, harder line Republicans....but i guess thats just society anyway.


I dont actually think there is a majority in favour of unity, but yes i think there is a more moderate attitude to the possibility....there would probably be more "maybes" now. And those maybes are due to a change or softening of the opinions of the nos. This seems a silly thing to say, but those in favour of unity wont have changed their minds, but some of those previously against unity will have softened their opinions...in part due to Brexit but id also like to think in part to the peace process.
I think for younger people, their future is more concerned about access to Europe and the rest of the world than whether will they be part of a united Ireland.


Hard to write all of these answers, im in work...lol...shh, dont tell. We need to continue this over copious pints of stout!

Look, this is just my thoughts...whilst i lived in difficult times, in working class area as a child....ive grown up and married and raised kids in a very different time and social circle....largely directed by the results of the peace process. If the troubles hadnt ended i wouldnt have married (never mind met) my wife, i wouldnt have my kids, i wouldnt live where i live and i doubt i would have the friendship circle i have now.


This stuff is hard to explain to people in England, i know as ive tried and failed with my own family!! We had towns within cities that you couldnt go into..."themmuns" were people who lived in those areas, who you were scared of, that you would never meet or socialise with....its not like sharing a city with Utd fans, who are different, but they are still around you and in your family....these were people we were seperated from by large concrete walls
Click to expand...

Thanks.
Very honest appraisal.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
i think thats pretty accurate...but bear in mind, Loyalist paramilitaries arent renowned for their "Terrorism skillzzzz"...and there has been research into the potential economic impact on a united ireland, and its generally positive....there would be international interest in it succeeding. But its why to just cut NI off from the UK and the next day there is a 32 county unified ireland will never happen. If things are done at the right pace, with the right mindset it could be a political and economic win-win for all involved.

IMO, the harshness, the divisiveness and ill thought out nature of Brexit truly damages the likelihood of a decent out come to reunification
Click to expand...

Sounds about right. There are already elements of shared 'interests' via the GFA & if an 'everyone's a winner' pitch can be presented then shared sovereignty (at least to begin with) is the way to go.

I do disagree about your Brexit comments though as the entire UK couldn't stay in the EU forever because of the situation in Ireland. We are out and a solution therefore needs to be found for that particular situation.
 
Ardwick Green Blue said:
Sounds about right. There are already elements of shared 'interests' via the GFA & if an 'everyone's a winner' pitch can be presented then shared sovereignty (at least to begin with) is the way to go.

I do disagree about your Brexit comments though as the entire UK couldn't stay in the EU forever because of the situation in Ireland. We are out and a solution therefore needs to be found for that particular situation.
Click to expand...

Oh, i dont believe the whole of the UK should remain because of the NI situation..far from it...what i mean is that the very nature of the Brexit process has been a mess...to force through, or bring up the issue of reunification now would be a very big mistake (mostly for those in favour of reunification)...the timing isnt right. There needs to be a lot of ground work, at least a generations worth....the Brexit decision is largely irrelevant, but the damage and division it has caused is very relevant. Dare i say, in England those difference will son be forgottwn and everyone will just get on with it...with a bit of a hangover....but over here, divisions were already (violently) deep....rushing intpo a border poll in the way that Brexit was handled would be disastrous
 
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