Is life mapped out for us

What would be the point of that without any recollection?

And I don't mean a couple of zoomers who claim to be Napoleon.

People fear death. Want to believe their dead loved ones are up there waiting for them and most importantly they don't die.

Different cultures deal with this differently, this is the eastern version of don't worry you will come back as a shut eating fly if you're not good and obedient,
I think it's all a load of nonsense. I think we are made of atoms and molecules and nothing more. And we can no more live an afterlife than a grain of salt can. Earth to earth, ashes to ashes etc. My point about the future existing - which you can't get your head around - is about Physics not spiritualism.
 
What would be the point of that without any recollection?

And I don't mean a couple of zoomers who claim to be Napoleon.

People fear death. Want to believe their dead loved ones are up there waiting for them and most importantly they don't die.

Different cultures deal with this differently, this is the eastern version of don't worry you will come back as a shut eating fly if you're not good and obedient,

But people have spoken of 'regression' before. We don't know if it's true or not, we just chalk it down to 'provable fact'.

We can't prove dreams, can we? But we know it happens for a 'fact'. Science is what we know, not what we don't.

It's natural to fear death as it holds an unknown quantity; that we may only cease to exist on a scientific level.

That's it.

What's the point in not remembering? Maybe the magnitude at this level is too much? Maybe we go through different levels of 'learning' or maybe we just die.

Who the fook knows?!!
 

You're only highlighting the electrical signals in our brains that give the telltale signs of dreaming. Yes, it's my fault that I used loose language and you, rightly, embedded a type of 'proof' within that gap.

I should, therefore, state that science cannot draw out the exact specifics within your dream, as proof that you have actually had the dream you claimed. The individual can know it as 'fact', but anyone else has to trust what is said as that person's experience.

Science is, therefore limited to provable fact, not anything else.

Ergo, it cannot explain anything beyond the physical platform at this stage of limited scientific testing... so far.
 
Butterfly effect, thats all. It isnt really worth talking about, as without time travel, there can be no chnge either way. What you do is set
 
I should, therefore, state that science cannot draw out the exact specifics within your dream, as proof that you have actually had the dream you claimed. The individual can know it as 'fact', but anyone else has to trust what is said as that person's experience.

You're changing the goalposts from 'prove we dream' to 'prove a particular dream had a particular content'.

And I don't think we're all that far away from that, tbh.

The biological and psychological mechanics of visual/aural perception and emotional experience are well understood and we are at the early stages of being able to measure them. We just need to be able to collect enough information about the activity, and have models sophisticated enough to interpret it, and we'll be able to say things along the line of 'you saw many people, then you saw one face you recognised, you felt affection'.

The basis for the interpretation is likely to be in part individual to the subject - maps of neurological activity, biometrics and verbal responses taken from the awake individual when presented with certain stimuli.

One thing that a lot of people don't get is that all perception and experience involves the entire body function and sense data. We aren't aware we breath, for the most part. But it can become a conscious process. The idea is that for the most part, this kind of 'autonomic' data, when not brought into awareness-consciousness... it provides a constant background noise, almost a carrier wave for the things which enter our specific awareness. We know we are alive because when we get cold, we feel cold.

The standard thought experiment has been the 'Zombie'. Could you have an organism or machine that wasn't conscious but responded in the same way as one that was.

My view is that this takes us away from the reality of consciouness. It specifically invites us to concieve of it as something hidden, separate. From there, it's hard to work your way back to neurology, calcium channels and proton gradients.

My preferred alternative is to ask, could we preserve a brain in a working state apart from a body? There appear to be specific reasons why we can't feed and maintain it's activity. From this you can make the inference that a self-sensing organ like the brain is not working in isolation. The constant flow of chemical and electronic energies extend to the whole organism. So they underpin the function we call 'sense'. One function of autonomic systems in the brain is to maintain normal operating condition of the organism. We can recognise that we have more 'senses' than vision/touch/smell(taste)/sound/heat, and these are mostly dealing with internal operation.

So take that as your bottom block of consciousness, a subtle awareness of internal the state of things, and work from there, through the simplest organisms that have similair mechanism, through mammalia, and you see extra blocks and and complexity being added, that correspond to mechanisms we have, that cause the same behaviour as those mechansims do in us when presented with appropriate stimuli.

The only way to make sense out of that seems to be to say, consciousness is absolutely not an all or nothing phenomena. There are 'layers', and 'modules' that create more 'complete' consciousness. At the 'more complex' end, we find layers that deal with 'autobiographical' memory, abstraction, reflection - although for my money, they are probably not divisible concepts. When you have a memory of being you some time in the past, that gives you a clearer sense of a self that persists through time.

The ability to abstract and reflect on such experiences is one thing. Having a language that offers you the tools to describe that experience in a manner that can be corresponded to the phenomenoligically derived language of science, is another.
 
You're changing the goalposts from 'prove we dream' to 'prove a particular dream had a particular content'.

And I don't think we're all that far away from that, tbh.

The biological and psychological mechanics of visual/aural perception and emotional experience are well understood and we are at the early stages of being able to measure them. We just need to be able to collect enough information about the activity, and have models sophisticated enough to interpret it, and we'll be able to say things along the line of 'you saw many people, then you saw one face you recognised, you felt affection'.

The basis for the interpretation is likely to be in part individual to the subject - maps of neurological activity, biometrics and verbal responses taken from the awake individual when presented with certain stimuli.

One thing that a lot of people don't get is that all perception and experience involves the entire body function and sense data. We aren't aware we breath, for the most part. But it can become a conscious process. The idea is that for the most part, this kind of 'autonomic' data, when not brought into awareness-consciousness... it provides a constant background noise, almost a carrier wave for the things which enter our specific awareness. We know we are alive because when we get cold, we feel cold.

The standard thought experiment has been the 'Zombie'. Could you have an organism or machine that wasn't conscious but responded in the same way as one that was.

My view is that this takes us away from the reality of consciouness. It specifically invites us to concieve of it as something hidden, separate. From there, it's hard to work your way back to neurology, calcium channels and proton gradients.

My preferred alternative is to ask, could we preserve a brain in a working state apart from a body? There appear to be specific reasons why we can't feed and maintain it's activity. From this you can make the inference that a self-sensing organ like the brain is not working in isolation. The constant flow of chemical and electronic energies extend to the whole organism. So they underpin the function we call 'sense'. One function of autonomic systems in the brain is to maintain normal operating condition of the organism. We can recognise that we have more 'senses' than vision/touch/smell(taste)/sound/heat, and these are mostly dealing with internal operation.

So take that as your bottom block of consciousness, a subtle awareness of internal the state of things, and work from there, through the simplest organisms that have similair mechanism, through mammalia, and you see extra blocks and and complexity being added, that correspond to mechanisms we have, that cause the same behaviour as those mechansims do in us when presented with appropriate stimuli.

The only way to make sense out of that seems to be to say, consciousness is absolutely not an all or nothing phenomena. There are 'layers', and 'modules' that create more 'complete' consciousness. At the 'more complex' end, we find layers that deal with 'autobiographical' memory, abstraction, reflection - although for my money, they are probably not divisible concepts. When you have a memory of being you some time in the past, that gives you a clearer sense of a self that persists through time.

The ability to abstract and reflect on such experiences is one thing. Having a language that offers you the tools to describe that experience in a manner that can be corresponded to the phenomenoligically derived language of science, is another.

Interesting answer. Flawed, but interesting.

Couple of holes in there as you suggested I'd 'moved the goalposts', which wasn't true, in my opinion.

Firstly, what I said in the beginning holds water. Damo just inserted something to make me embellish what I meant as it's quite a broad statement that I made. Yours and Damo's response merely point to an electrical response in the brain. Secondly, it doesn't gauge how long it is nor explain when we arrive at 'dream state' in order to answer why it can feel we fall into a dream almost straight away and the dream feels like 10 mins even if we've been asleep 8 hours! It's an interesting study but leaves out these obvious questions.

So, as much as you would like believe we're close to 'capturing our dream for interpretation' [paraphrased] it's not going to happen in this century at least. The only chance of that happening is discovering what happens after death as both things are related, in my mind; a sense of being not connected to the physical body.

Lastly, this thought process of yours doesn't dismiss my initial theory at all, I note.

Maybe you could offer something on the general thinking I had?

I would find it infinitely more interesting.

Cheers.
 
I don't find it disagreeable that there are lower and higher states of consciousness. Taking LSD might be described as tapping-in to a higher state. But there has to be a line (however narrow) where we can say an organism is conscious or not conscious. So, I think, though there is a scale of complexity, that there has a line to be drawn also. Panpsychism(?) seems to obliterate the science of consciousness emerging from brains (as i've read it). Consciousness being an emergent property is the general position I believe.
 
I think it's all a load of nonsense. I think we are made of atoms and molecules and nothing more. And we can no more live an afterlife than a grain of salt can. Earth to earth, ashes to ashes etc. My point about the future existing - which you can't get your head around - is about Physics not spiritualism.

If we are just made of molecules and atoms and nothing more, why do you care about anything ? If everything is just made up of meaningless atoms .. why do you care about others ? Man City ? If everything is just pointless ?
 
If we are just made of molecules and atoms and nothing more, why do you care about anything ? If everything is just made up of meaningless atoms .. why do you care about others ? Man City ? If everything is just pointless ?

Not read anything by Chippy Boy that implies he is a nihilist. You can be a materialist or a physicalist and still understand and appreciate the value intrinsic to life/sentience.
 

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