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Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the club
- Thread starter Mike D
- Start date
GaudinoMotors
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Agree with your sentiments - and I think the poor transfer window will cost us the league (depending on what happens in January) - but it's hard to argue this in relation to last night after losing to a youth team and a couple of old timers.
hgblue said:If you have a title winning manager who comes to you with a list of targets including the likes of Thiago Silva, Hazard, Martinez, etc, and you choose to ignore him and give him the likes of Sinclair, Rodwell, Maicon, etc, then you take the consequences of ignoring his advice. Mancini wanted to move us on to the next level, and instead we've stood still. Big mistake.
Agree with your sentiments - and I think the poor transfer window will cost us the league (depending on what happens in January) - but it's hard to argue this in relation to last night after losing to a youth team and a couple of old timers.
Oohvonkyvonky
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
100% agree. What a fuckin joke this OP & some of this thread is! Question the tactics, personnel for each game but to react like this is a disgrace.
glen quagmire said:Mods can you let me know what i need to do to get this embarassment binned? I will even take a ban, i'll deny the holocaust, threaten someone or post a pic of my cock. Whatever it takes
100% agree. What a fuckin joke this OP & some of this thread is! Question the tactics, personnel for each game but to react like this is a disgrace.
Txiki Txiki Bang Bang
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
No we don't ! We can't keep BUYING , BUYING , BUYING !! every single TACTICAL problem = Let's buy players . Its time for Mancini to actually look at the team and bring out the best from what he has . Ajax didn't spend more than 5million in the transfer window . Its time to look at the manager and not the players .
Also i think Mancini might lose the support of the players if he's not careful . In Lescott's post match interview he said "he doesn't think lack of preparation was the problem and that the team prepared very well" totally different from what Mancini said in his post match interview which he had before Lescotts interview , so Lescott knew very well that Mancini's "excuse" to the media was that the team didn't prepare properly but yet he choose to go against that excuse
<a class="postlink" href="http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/</a>
Malty said:We need better players.
No we don't ! We can't keep BUYING , BUYING , BUYING !! every single TACTICAL problem = Let's buy players . Its time for Mancini to actually look at the team and bring out the best from what he has . Ajax didn't spend more than 5million in the transfer window . Its time to look at the manager and not the players .
Also i think Mancini might lose the support of the players if he's not careful . In Lescott's post match interview he said "he doesn't think lack of preparation was the problem and that the team prepared very well" totally different from what Mancini said in his post match interview which he had before Lescotts interview , so Lescott knew very well that Mancini's "excuse" to the media was that the team didn't prepare properly but yet he choose to go against that excuse
<a class="postlink" href="http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/</a>
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Mike D you are a disgrace!! have a big word with yourself. Talk about over-reaction.
I really thought we had grown out of this sort of shit. You are taking us back to the bad old days. YOU have made a bad morning even worst!! ODIOT!!!
Mike D you are a disgrace!! have a big word with yourself. Talk about over-reaction.
I really thought we had grown out of this sort of shit. You are taking us back to the bad old days. YOU have made a bad morning even worst!! ODIOT!!!
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
OK, first of all Arsenal did not play Dortmund off the park. Both games were really close and one even ended in a draw.
Speaking of Dortmund, while both them and City are very different in several ways, they share pretty much the same experience in the Champions League last year.
Both teams played way worse than in the league. They could not bring the same performances on the international stage and payed for their lack of experience.
But now comes the big difference between them. Dortmund used the mostly negative experiences and learned from their mistakes. They developed and stand now on the top of the hardest group in this year.
In the meantime, City stagnates.
You can of course defend Mancini with the fact, that he won the team two national titles, but for me that is too easy. If you want to rate a manager, you need to take the resources into account.
Some of the greatest managers I know have not even won titles and I still rate them very highly. A good example for this is Mirko Slomka, the manager of the Bundesliga club Hanover 96. This club with a very small budget played for a long time in the no mans land of the league. Slomka lead them into the Euro League, where they impressed every German, getting into the Quarter Finals, where they fell to the eventual champion Atletico Madrid after a hard fight.
People try to excuse Mancini´s and ManCity´s poor performance in the Champions League this year with the strong group, but then I look at the managers of those clubs.
The standing of Mourinho does not need to debated. As much as I dislike the guy, he is one of the most successful managers in the history of club football.
Frank de Boer created a team with seven or eight players out of their own youth academy. They still put up a respectable fight away against Dortmund and managed to beat City last night.
Then there is Jurgen Klopp. This man build a team, that dominated the Bundesliga the last two seasons, including five victories in a row against a world class team, which managed to get in the Champions League Final twice in the last three years. He also lifted the team on a very high level in the Champions League as I mentioned before. He did all that with a starting squad that cost less money than what Mancini payed for one striker (Aguero).
I don´t want to say, that Mancini needs to accomplish what Klopp did in Dortmund, because such a thing is extremely rare, but I look at their performances in the CL and I see no real team, system or tactic.
How can a team with so much investment, so much depth and skill play that poorly? Why is their no growth from their last Champions League campaign? When you have so much quality on the pitch you are bound to look for the problems on the bench and I don´t mean the ridiculous strong reserve players.
Bazzmand Show said:kiam06 said:Ajax are no mugs and showed it at the swamp last year and Dortmund and Madrid are better than any English team so I can't believe the arrogance of our fans.
Arsenal played Dortmund off the park last year and beat them twice. I'm not buying that mate. We should be beating teams like Dortmund at home.
OK, first of all Arsenal did not play Dortmund off the park. Both games were really close and one even ended in a draw.
Speaking of Dortmund, while both them and City are very different in several ways, they share pretty much the same experience in the Champions League last year.
Both teams played way worse than in the league. They could not bring the same performances on the international stage and payed for their lack of experience.
But now comes the big difference between them. Dortmund used the mostly negative experiences and learned from their mistakes. They developed and stand now on the top of the hardest group in this year.
In the meantime, City stagnates.
You can of course defend Mancini with the fact, that he won the team two national titles, but for me that is too easy. If you want to rate a manager, you need to take the resources into account.
Some of the greatest managers I know have not even won titles and I still rate them very highly. A good example for this is Mirko Slomka, the manager of the Bundesliga club Hanover 96. This club with a very small budget played for a long time in the no mans land of the league. Slomka lead them into the Euro League, where they impressed every German, getting into the Quarter Finals, where they fell to the eventual champion Atletico Madrid after a hard fight.
People try to excuse Mancini´s and ManCity´s poor performance in the Champions League this year with the strong group, but then I look at the managers of those clubs.
The standing of Mourinho does not need to debated. As much as I dislike the guy, he is one of the most successful managers in the history of club football.
Frank de Boer created a team with seven or eight players out of their own youth academy. They still put up a respectable fight away against Dortmund and managed to beat City last night.
Then there is Jurgen Klopp. This man build a team, that dominated the Bundesliga the last two seasons, including five victories in a row against a world class team, which managed to get in the Champions League Final twice in the last three years. He also lifted the team on a very high level in the Champions League as I mentioned before. He did all that with a starting squad that cost less money than what Mancini payed for one striker (Aguero).
I don´t want to say, that Mancini needs to accomplish what Klopp did in Dortmund, because such a thing is extremely rare, but I look at their performances in the CL and I see no real team, system or tactic.
How can a team with so much investment, so much depth and skill play that poorly? Why is their no growth from their last Champions League campaign? When you have so much quality on the pitch you are bound to look for the problems on the bench and I don´t mean the ridiculous strong reserve players.
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Agree! You just can't compare City 10 or more years ago and now. It's not like Mancini build this club from nothing, he spent over 300M! And when you see his Inter in Europe or our matches against Dynamo, Napoli, Sporting, Dortmund or Ajax. Coincidence? Really? When we couldn't lose at Napoli or had to beat Ajax... and still didn't perform. And comments about Arsenal? CL final in '06? Or that they always play in KO stages? And Roman's Chelsea in CL?
tolmie's hairdoo said:The thing is, we have no real barometer for previous success, we're still winging in, thankful for what we have got.
People say Bobby is the best manager we have had since Mercer, but that is hardly an endorsement is it?
Others will say changing the manager gets you nowhere, but outside of Ferguson at United, everybody changes their manager when and necessary.
I actually praise Abramovich for what he has done at Chelsea. He never settles for just good enough.
Despite all the upheavals, he has continued to keep them winning trophies and competitive.
I feel sorry for Mancini is the respect he is also paying the price for FFPR and our lousy co-efficient, but he remains on a hiding to nothing.
This squad needs a scalpel taking to it and I felt that after the title win.
We bought the players to get us into the top four, additions won us the league.
What I can't understand are those people who don't see that we can't stand still.
Soriano coming in to the club could change a lot of things and there is a Barca-like revolution going on behind the scenes.
I could see one on the pitch before much longer - if someone such as Guardiola is sounded out.
Agree! You just can't compare City 10 or more years ago and now. It's not like Mancini build this club from nothing, he spent over 300M! And when you see his Inter in Europe or our matches against Dynamo, Napoli, Sporting, Dortmund or Ajax. Coincidence? Really? When we couldn't lose at Napoli or had to beat Ajax... and still didn't perform. And comments about Arsenal? CL final in '06? Or that they always play in KO stages? And Roman's Chelsea in CL?
jay_mcfc
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
He was very clearly taking the pressure off the players. He's done it before and has had a good response from it. Think it was after we lost to Everton last season.
I feel a bit sorry for Swansea on Saturday.
i♥city! said:Also i think Mancini might lose the support of the players if he's not careful . In Lescott's post match interview he said "he doesn't think lack of preparation was the problem and that the team prepared very well" totally different from what Mancini said in his post match interview which he had before Lescotts interview , so Lescott knew very well that Mancini's "excuse" to the media was that the team didn't prepare properly but yet he choose to go against that excuse
He was very clearly taking the pressure off the players. He's done it before and has had a good response from it. Think it was after we lost to Everton last season.
I feel a bit sorry for Swansea on Saturday.
mike channon´s windmill
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2 Jun 2008
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- 7,475
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
You´re right, we can´t keep spending (although RedRom doesn´t seem to think so 200m in 18 months). What we need is to buy the RIGHT players. We could have had Dembele for the price of Rodwell and Cazorla for the price of Garcia - just a thoughti♥city! said:Malty said:We need better players.
No we don't ! We can't keep BUYING , BUYING , BUYING !! every single TACTICAL problem = Let's buy players . Its time for Mancini to actually look at the team and bring out the best from what he has . Ajax didn't spend more than 5million in the transfer window . Its time to look at the manager and not the players .
Also i think Mancini might lose the support of the players if he's not careful . In Lescott's post match interview he said "he doesn't think lack of preparation was the problem and that the team prepared very well" totally different from what Mancini said in his post match interview which he had before Lescotts interview , so Lescott knew very well that Mancini's "excuse" to the media was that the team didn't prepare properly but yet he choose to go against that excuse
<a class="postlink" href="http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/</a>
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Mancini is in trouble because he will be asked about this CL fiasco, why he didnt get it right one again in the group stages and he cant come up with the inexperience of the team, the missing players, or we need more world class players.
Dortmund and Napoli do not have better players than what we have. Still they will qualify ahead of us. But most of all they have a gameplan and they was able to work that out against us, basically all the thing happened on the field that they wanted to happen, they domintated us, while we got scared and started this backpasses, sideway passes, back to Hart and hoof it.
Does Napoli coach said he need better players to beat City? He should say that because they dont have the squad we have. Nowhere near...
Instead of that they came with a gameplan.
That is where MAncini fails and dont say he is young he will get it right in Europe. He is going backwards since his Inter year. There they got fed up with him because that Inter squad was very strong but failed to beat Liverpool, Milan, Villarreal, Valencia in that time and their squad was weaker a little bit then that Inter.
Chelsea, United, Barca were the strongest teams in those years but Mancini failed with Inter against lesser teams.
This time we dont fail against Bayern, Real only but Dortmund, Ajax, Napoli, Sporting, D. Kijev.
"He is improving" dont come with that shit. He isnt. No sing of imrpvoing in Europe. The lessons were there to learn from last years fiasco, but te way we got dominated against Real,Dortmund and Ajax also shows we need a miracle to get 5 points in this group .
Spending so much money and still hoping in miracle is a little bit funny. A yong Ajax team that cost 10m pounds seemed like a side with full of confidence, gameplan, pace, right tactics, their best attacking player was a Liverpool reject...
Be calm they will easily lose to Dortmund and Real, because these teams have better squad and gameplan, good tactics too.
We have better squad too but no gameplan, no pace, no tactics. No vision.
Mancini is in trouble because he will be asked about this CL fiasco, why he didnt get it right one again in the group stages and he cant come up with the inexperience of the team, the missing players, or we need more world class players.
Dortmund and Napoli do not have better players than what we have. Still they will qualify ahead of us. But most of all they have a gameplan and they was able to work that out against us, basically all the thing happened on the field that they wanted to happen, they domintated us, while we got scared and started this backpasses, sideway passes, back to Hart and hoof it.
Does Napoli coach said he need better players to beat City? He should say that because they dont have the squad we have. Nowhere near...
Instead of that they came with a gameplan.
That is where MAncini fails and dont say he is young he will get it right in Europe. He is going backwards since his Inter year. There they got fed up with him because that Inter squad was very strong but failed to beat Liverpool, Milan, Villarreal, Valencia in that time and their squad was weaker a little bit then that Inter.
Chelsea, United, Barca were the strongest teams in those years but Mancini failed with Inter against lesser teams.
This time we dont fail against Bayern, Real only but Dortmund, Ajax, Napoli, Sporting, D. Kijev.
"He is improving" dont come with that shit. He isnt. No sing of imrpvoing in Europe. The lessons were there to learn from last years fiasco, but te way we got dominated against Real,Dortmund and Ajax also shows we need a miracle to get 5 points in this group .
Spending so much money and still hoping in miracle is a little bit funny. A yong Ajax team that cost 10m pounds seemed like a side with full of confidence, gameplan, pace, right tactics, their best attacking player was a Liverpool reject...
Be calm they will easily lose to Dortmund and Real, because these teams have better squad and gameplan, good tactics too.
We have better squad too but no gameplan, no pace, no tactics. No vision.
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
It's all down to fine lines, margin of error.
If we'd got the 2nd goal as we should have (Micah, Kun, Nasri)..
If we'd held out for 30 secs more for HT..
If Lescott had jumped...
If Edin had scored the 2 chances he had late on (blocked by goalie & when went round the goalie)
would this thread have even existed?
Mancini was not responsible for ANY of the above.. Bad player decisions by players were....
learning curve!
get a grip you flapping twats...
It's all down to fine lines, margin of error.
If we'd got the 2nd goal as we should have (Micah, Kun, Nasri)..
If we'd held out for 30 secs more for HT..
If Lescott had jumped...
If Edin had scored the 2 chances he had late on (blocked by goalie & when went round the goalie)
would this thread have even existed?
Mancini was not responsible for ANY of the above.. Bad player decisions by players were....
learning curve!
get a grip you flapping twats...
LongsightM13
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Wow. Just wow.
This is almost identical to the thread after the Arsenal game last season. Embarrassing to the human race
Wow. Just wow.
This is almost identical to the thread after the Arsenal game last season. Embarrassing to the human race
Nebuchadnezzar
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Ridiculous post OP. How fickle do you want to be? Get a fucking grip, absolutely pathetic.
Ridiculous post OP. How fickle do you want to be? Get a fucking grip, absolutely pathetic.
GaudinoMotors
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Spot on
levets said:It's all down to fine lines, margin of error.
If we'd got the 2nd goal as we should have (Micah, Kun, Nasri)..
If we'd held out for 30 secs more for HT..
If Lescott had jumped...
If Edin had scored the 2 chances he had late on (blocked by goalie & when went round the goalie)
would this thread have even existed?
Mancini was not responsible for ANY of the above.. Bad player decisions by players were....
learning curve!
get a grip you flapping twats...
Spot on
A
A
Anonymous
Guest
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Not to be argumentative but Madrid twice tried to poach Benitez from Liverpool. He was also on the shortlist to replace Kombuare at PSG. I don't think he's the right guy for City mind you - but he's a very good coach and Liverpool's travails since he's left are testament to that.
I'm surprised the number of people who are surprised or shocked by what happened last night. I was absolutely gutted but neither surprised nor shocked. I said after the Dortmund game on here that Ajax would prove to be as tough a task and that although they had lost by three goals to Madrid they had created numerous chances and would do the same against us.
I don't think we'll get through this group now, no chance. I think realistically we need to consider throwing the remaining games to make sure we don't end up in the Europa League because it's a tournament the players and coaching staff simply don't care about enough to win. I'd rather we focussed on the league.
As for Mancini, he continues to have little clue about how to motivate his team in Europe. Not a problem for now because the league is priority - but if this malaise effects our league performances then he will be under an enormous amount of pressure.
waspish said:Some people are taking the Piss talking about Benitez as a possible replacement he was the manager who Balls it up big time when at Christmas they were on track on winning the league so what they won the champions. League do people forget they were 0-3 down with his inept tactics in the first place! Ask your self this would the scum Madrid or even Psg employ him as there manager?
Not to be argumentative but Madrid twice tried to poach Benitez from Liverpool. He was also on the shortlist to replace Kombuare at PSG. I don't think he's the right guy for City mind you - but he's a very good coach and Liverpool's travails since he's left are testament to that.
I'm surprised the number of people who are surprised or shocked by what happened last night. I was absolutely gutted but neither surprised nor shocked. I said after the Dortmund game on here that Ajax would prove to be as tough a task and that although they had lost by three goals to Madrid they had created numerous chances and would do the same against us.
I don't think we'll get through this group now, no chance. I think realistically we need to consider throwing the remaining games to make sure we don't end up in the Europa League because it's a tournament the players and coaching staff simply don't care about enough to win. I'd rather we focussed on the league.
As for Mancini, he continues to have little clue about how to motivate his team in Europe. Not a problem for now because the league is priority - but if this malaise effects our league performances then he will be under an enormous amount of pressure.
Txiki Txiki Bang Bang
Well-Known Member
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
Exactly ! I made a post some time ago on how we could have gotten Dembele (who's could be a great cover for Yaya in January and could also play alongside Yaya) and Vertonghen instead of Nastasic . While Nastasic has the potential of being a world class defender is still believe vertonghen would have been better , However the transfer window is over and Mancini MUST use what he has , he must prove that he's a developmental coach and not a "buying" coach .
mike channon´s windmill said:You´re right, we can´t keep spending (although RedRom doesn´t seem to think so 200m in 18 months). What we need is to buy the RIGHT players. We could have had Dembele for the price of Rodwell and Cazorla for the price of Garcia - just a thoughti♥city! said:Malty said:We need better players.
No we don't ! We can't keep BUYING , BUYING , BUYING !! every single TACTICAL problem = Let's buy players . Its time for Mancini to actually look at the team and bring out the best from what he has . Ajax didn't spend more than 5million in the transfer window . Its time to look at the manager and not the players .
Also i think Mancini might lose the support of the players if he's not careful . In Lescott's post match interview he said "he doesn't think lack of preparation was the problem and that the team prepared very well" totally different from what Mancini said in his post match interview which he had before Lescotts interview , so Lescott knew very well that Mancini's "excuse" to the media was that the team didn't prepare properly but yet he choose to go against that excuse
<a class="postlink" href="http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/</a>
Exactly ! I made a post some time ago on how we could have gotten Dembele (who's could be a great cover for Yaya in January and could also play alongside Yaya) and Vertonghen instead of Nastasic . While Nastasic has the potential of being a world class defender is still believe vertonghen would have been better , However the transfer window is over and Mancini MUST use what he has , he must prove that he's a developmental coach and not a "buying" coach .
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
not any manager -nor even jesus christ- can develop the likes of lescott in football players
i♥city! said:mike channon´s windmill said:You´re right, we can´t keep spending (although RedRom doesn´t seem to think so 200m in 18 months). What we need is to buy the RIGHT players. We could have had Dembele for the price of Rodwell and Cazorla for the price of Garcia - just a thoughti♥city! said:No we don't ! We can't keep BUYING , BUYING , BUYING !! every single TACTICAL problem = Let's buy players . Its time for Mancini to actually look at the team and bring out the best from what he has . Ajax didn't spend more than 5million in the transfer window . Its time to look at the manager and not the players .
Also i think Mancini might lose the support of the players if he's not careful . In Lescott's post match interview he said "he doesn't think lack of preparation was the problem and that the team prepared very well" totally different from what Mancini said in his post match interview which he had before Lescotts interview , so Lescott knew very well that Mancini's "excuse" to the media was that the team didn't prepare properly but yet he choose to go against that excuse
<a class="postlink" href="http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11679/8193006/</a>
Exactly ! I made a post some time ago on how we could have gotten Dembele (who's could be a great cover for Yaya in January and could also play alongside Yaya) and Vertonghen instead of Nastasic . While Nastasic has the potential of being a world class defender is still believe vertonghen would have been better , However the transfer window is over and Mancini MUST use what he has , he must prove that he's a developmental coach and not a "buying" coach .
not any manager -nor even jesus christ- can develop the likes of lescott in football players
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
I haven't got time to get involved in this debate at the moment but I presume it has been mentioned in this thread that this is the most difficult group in Champion's League history.
There is also an argument that would make last year's group the second most difficult.
You rarely, thanks to the seeding, gets 'groups of death' in the Champion's League, never mind one as outrageous as this one.
Yet last night I had to listen to comments about how this team is naive in Europe (they are) and how they should seek to emulate the European ability of the likes of United (City would have walked through their group this year and would have done the same last year - something they couldn't do).
As such, any criticism I have of the team/manager - and there is some - is tempered massively by the outrageous scale of the task placed in front of a rookie European team in the last two years.
I haven't got time to get involved in this debate at the moment but I presume it has been mentioned in this thread that this is the most difficult group in Champion's League history.
There is also an argument that would make last year's group the second most difficult.
You rarely, thanks to the seeding, gets 'groups of death' in the Champion's League, never mind one as outrageous as this one.
Yet last night I had to listen to comments about how this team is naive in Europe (they are) and how they should seek to emulate the European ability of the likes of United (City would have walked through their group this year and would have done the same last year - something they couldn't do).
As such, any criticism I have of the team/manager - and there is some - is tempered massively by the outrageous scale of the task placed in front of a rookie European team in the last two years.
york away to this!
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- 11,022
Re: Is now the time to consider Mancini's tenure at the clubs
We need to decide what the f*ck is going on with the defensive set up, choose the style that is best for the team and play it.
Mancini may well be sitting there saying "I told you so" about the summer transfers - I agree with earlier posts that these were simply not good enough and have not improved the squad or the team - BUT surely he needs to think long and hard about three at the back.
As that poor missing woman also found out, it's all well and good experimenting, though if you dont get it right it can be a bit sore in the morning.
We need to decide what the f*ck is going on with the defensive set up, choose the style that is best for the team and play it.
Mancini may well be sitting there saying "I told you so" about the summer transfers - I agree with earlier posts that these were simply not good enough and have not improved the squad or the team - BUT surely he needs to think long and hard about three at the back.
As that poor missing woman also found out, it's all well and good experimenting, though if you dont get it right it can be a bit sore in the morning.