Islamic Terrorism: is religion/belief no matter how misguided, the main motivator?

[BlueAnorak]

They were killed by psychotic individuals. Those psychotic individuals were not driven to genocide by their atheism, if they even were atheist. It's as relevant to say 120M were killed because the killers were male, or they were a particular star sign, or whatever shoe size they were, as it is to say they were atheists.

Religion and blind faith however is the reason for death, the driving force. I'm not sure what you mean by 'deceived by their leaders'. They're following religious orders. They're killing in the name of their god based on their understanding of a collection of written fairy tales. I also didn't pick up on it, but how many have been killed in the name of Islam or Judaism. The figure of 30M (if correct) is just for the Christian 'team' if I understand you.

You can say what want and believe what you want. Not stopping you or trying to stop you. Just don't call me a sick bastard because I don't subscribe to your delusions, and at the same time tell me you follow a 'love one another' principal. It's as hypocritical as the religion you follow.

This is my last post on the subject.

Yep psychotic individuals all round. I'm glad we agree on that.

 

[I'm With Stupid]

The problem today is that the Americans in order to hunt and kill one terrorist, they sometimes bomb a village and kill some innocent people who do not have any idea about this war. This creates opportunities for the terrorist groups to recruit more people who might sympathy with the victims. Thus, we end up in a circle that will continue to infinity

So the attack in Nice was caused by American foreign policy? Got it.

Why is there is great mystery as to the motivation? Just listen to them. They tell us what it is. Maajid Nawaz said that he was turned to extremism by the West's inaction in Bosnia. He said he was convinced by the recruiters that the West were happy to sit around and watch Muslims die. 10 years later, people were being recruited because the West did intervene. Whatever we do, these people will use it as a call to action, because in reality, their motivations exist regardless of what the West does. They are motivated by an extremist interpretation of the religion, but the reason it's so easy to make the jump to this extremist interpretation is because the so-called moderates of the religious have categorically failed to address huge flaws in their own ideology: the idea of a perfect Muslim state, support for sharia law, the seeing of non-Muslims as less than Muslims, the seeing of women as less than men, endemic homophobia, etc. I'm not saying that these views are majority opinions in the Muslim community (except homophobia), but there are very sizable minorities that support them, including many of the self-appointed "community leaders" who thrive on whipping up a victim mentality, that particularly appeals to young men. While these groups might not have told him to go out and commit atrocities, they are the ones that did most of the work in infecting him with this ideology.

 

[Damocles]

So reading 5.32 in isolation is a good verse to evidence Islam as a religion of peace. Reading them both together, understanding the context is not necessarily out of kilter with verses in other religious texts. Of their time you might say. But taking 5.33 in isolation and out of context could be used to push radicalisation?

It's difficult for me because you can take verses out in isolation (of the bible as well) that can be used to push hatred. But you would need to read the whole text and what it means in today's terms and context.

Is that fair?

Islam like other religions is a product of its time. The Qur'an is generally peaceful enough for a book written at that point. Not a particularly long read either by holy book standards. The Hadith are where most of the crazy comes in and there's the typical religious cherry picking in that some are completely ignored by some sects but valued by others, there's a ranking system of importance based on closeness to the Prophet which people tend to miss and a bunch of other theological stuff the same as the rest.

Some of the more ridiculous quotes for example are in very low valued Hadith written by the equivalent the bloke down the pub and overruled by other more important scripts. Others, sadly, are not.

It's a pretty standard holy work to be honest. Peace, love, vengeance, believe in me or you're dead, etc, etc. The Qur'an actually talks a bit more about governance than I recall in the Bible. There's an argument that it can't really be translated into English without loskng some meaning but the Torah gets this criticism too.

You could basically swap them around and very little in the world would change

 

[cucumberman]

What does verse 5:33 say?

Verse 5:33 says, those who persist with their corruption of the earth shall be killed, crucified or exiled.

Then Verse 5:34 says, but if they repent forgive them.

Just say sorry, surrender, promise you won't do it again then you get a second chance, which indeed happened quite often of the wars. The only time that this became a complexity was the case of the Bani Quraizah. This tribe of Jews are allies to Muhammad, but they committed treason once, which Muhammad punished by means of exile, the leniest of the three actions mentioned in 5:33. The Jew tribe then sought forgiveness which Muhammad accepted and they again became allies even after being wronged once. But again before long, the tribe committed a second treason, and it became a crime of the state, a state shared by different faiths. Seeing the gravity of the crime, Muhammad elected a Jew tribe leader from an ally of the Quraizah, who employed the book of the Torah as the law because it was between Jews, and executed the tribe because by the Torah there was not a release clause. But it hindsight that guy could have been more compassionate I guess.

Then further down the line you read another verse that might concern you.

Verse 5:38 says, those who steal, amputate their limbs. Then Verse 5:39 says whoevers repents from his wrongdoing, forgive him.

This beats civil law to be fair. If you shoplift, you get sent to jail. But in the law above, if you repent and promise not to do it again, you are free to live and become a better person, all limbs accounted for.

The passage of verses talks about grim things yes, but these are deterrents that have escape clauses as well. Repent is tawba which in Arabic means to retreat from misdeeds. However, many tribes prescribe to these deterrents too literally and have no compassion to activate the escape clauses.

 

[steviemc]

The problem today is that the Americans in order to hunt and kill one terrorist, they sometimes bomb a village and kill some innocent people who do not have any idea about this war. This creates opportunities for the terrorist groups to recruit more people who might sympathy with the victims. Thus, we end up in a circle that will continue to infinity

Oh please! Do me a feckin favour. They 'sometimes' bomb a village? You say that as if it's some kind of intentional strike, as if it's going to get other nations on their side? Nobody would ever intentionally target civilians as a way to win a propaganda war - unless you either have a media blackout or are corrupt. Are you willing to say that the killing of our children on Tuesday at the Arena was some kind of targeted missile that went astray, leading to 'collateral' casualties? If not, then I'd suggest you've either got some explaining to do, or should perhaps shut the fuck up.

 

[Ban-jani]

I'm sharing it for the religious part at the beginning ffs

Good man, I was just checking.

Considering a large part of the documentary is a government conspiracy and that line is being trotted out by some people at the moment, I just wanted to check.

Apologies for the suspicion.

 

[CTID1988]

Even the family members who are apparantly "innocent" come out with some shit. Religion is a fucking cancer

"The sister of the Manchester bomber has sparked outrage after claiming her brother carried out his attack against children in “revenge” for US air drops in Syria.

Jomana Abedi described her older sibling as ‘kind’ and ‘loving’ to the Wall Street Journal, adding she was surprised he would carry out such an atrocity.

But then the 18-year-old added: “I think he saw children - Muslim children - dying everywhere, and wanted revenge.

“He saw the explosives America drops on children in Syria, and he wanted to revenge.

“Whether he got that is between him and God.”

 

[avoidconfusion]

Religions of all faiths/believes should take passages like the ones you quoted out of their Bibles and Qurans and whatever. I mean what the fuck?

 

[Ban-jani]

The problem with these criminals who use the name of Islam is their sick brains, how can you kill innocent people and pretend it is for pleasing God? How can you start a dialogue with sick minded people?

One thing I am sure about is do not help them by linking them to Islam, they are not Muslims, most of them never prayed and never been true believers. Come to Islamic world and see yourself how people are living and interacting.

Read the Qouran carefully and you will understand the truth. In Muslim countries the Muslims, Christians and Jewish lived together in peace for generations . Why this happening now?

The problem today is that the Americans in order to hunt and kill one terrorist, they sometimes bomb a village and kill some innocent people who do not have any idea about this war. This creates opportunities for the terrorist groups to recruit more people who might sympathy with the victims. Thus, we end up in a circle that will continue to infinity

My thoughts on how to defeat this evil is to has to start with working with the majority of Muslims that live normal lives, to drive these maniacs out.

However they're not pretending to think they're pleasing God, they're not ending their lives and taking innocent people with them just for their own kicks, they've been brainwashed to believe holy war is the only way to bring the apocalypse.

Lots of terrorists are recruited online, some through mosques, some in poor villages. This coward on Monday night wouldn't have done it if he didn't truly believe he was going to be rewarded by Allah in the afterlife, why would you blow yourself up at 22 if you didn't think that?

He was heard walking around shouting prayers in the weeks leading up to Monday. He's not doing that to practice his singing, it's because he's become deranged by his religious beliefs.

Islam is such a broad religion, with many more complications and sects than other religions. Luckily the vast majority get on with life and whilst I dislike many aspects of how women are treated etc. in the west they're our friends, colleagues, clients and so on. I was touched at how many Muslims came out to Albert Square to show it wasn't them that agreed with this shite and to show how much they loved Manchester - which they chanted constantly.

So to lump all Muslims in the same boat is not only an uneducated thing to do, it's also an unfair thing to do. However Salafists and those that follow Wahhabism in the extreme forms are still apart of Islam, just as the terrorists in Northern Ireland are Christians too.

I'm not having the point about America. The Americans are working with Kurdish and Iraqi army forces as allies to eradicate these arseholes. Watch any documentary or interview with people on our side on the ground and you'll see US air strikes, and UK for that matter, are not just needed but are asked for.

 

[The Silver Surfer]

As an atheist all religion is ridiculous to me and any faith can be torn apart quite easily.
I wouldn't ever stop anyone believing in what they want to believe unless it causes harm directly or indirectly. ANYONE linked to radicalism should be immediately deported and their family investigated for further links.
I don't know of any other religion that goes to such lengths either for political or ideological beliefs. Islam claims to be the only true religion and, ominously, the FINAL religion.
Every Muslim I have seen interviewed when asked to what can be done to stop Muslim terror attacks goes on to say you have to start on the international stage and look at foreign policies of Western Governments.
Ffs would anyone give this kind of leeway to any other religion? NO!
Because there's so many apologists and those who are scared to offend them for being labelled Islamophbic we are not only tolerating their actions but allowing them to flourish.
There is no debating with these people. Once radicalized they deem non Muslims as inferior and are following the Koran's message that those who are not Muslim or refuse to convert should be exterminated.
They detest democracy yet exploit it's values to commit these atrocities. These Muslim rape gangs wouldn't get away with it for so long if authorities were not so afraid to be labelled racist.
If the UK implemented a ban on those arriving from the seven countries Trump banned initially would the Arena attack have happened?

I saw the banner on tv that said something like "No hate, only LOVE".

Radicals are laughing at this message and harder action is required to cut this cancer out.