John Stones - 2019/20 Performances

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

I have said this before, but I think Pep should try going 3 atb. Many CBs have looked way better in this system because they can be more involved in build up and slightly less responsibly for fuck ups because it’s not just 2 of them.

I think both otamendi and stones would benefit here. I’ve seen David Luis and a few other CB look way better in a set up like this. Free’s the fullbacks too.

Anything is worth a try currently. One of the full backs couldn’t be Mendy though because he offers zero offensively at the moment. Maybe Angelino would be better in this set up. Who knows. We have problems whichever way we look at it. Thankfully the other usual top 4 suspects have been crap this season so the gap is decent. We need to start trying something else whatever they may be.

 

[Tricky_Trev]

I have said this before, but I think Pep should try going 3 atb. Many CBs have looked way better in this system because they can be more involved in build up and slightly less responsibly for fuck ups because it’s not just 2 of them.

I think both otamendi and stones would benefit here. I’ve seen David Luis and a few other CB look way better in a set up like this. Free’s the fullbacks too.

But why would we want Mendy and Walker being our only width? They couldn’t cross a road. This is the main flaw with choosing to play three at the back. Our attack would be pitiful.

 

[WallyA]

But why would we want Mendy and Walker being our only width? They couldn’t cross a road. This is the main flaw with choosing to play three at the back. Our attack would be pitiful.

Cancelo and Angelino as well. The main thing is we don’t have proper width and we actually have fullbacks who we brought in because they were good at being wide.

it also allows Sterling and Mahrez to play inside more where they are much more dangerous.

 

[OrigamiNinja]

Did you feel the same about Kompany, who also made plenty of similar mistakes?

I think he was immense, personally, but I am also not ignoring them because he is a club legend. Stones being scapegoated means his tend to be continually highlighted and Kompany’s tend to be forgotten.

I am truly amazed that you are trying to compare the two.

Kompany was an unbelievable defender, who at his best would have walked into any team in the world. He was also brilliant leader of men and widely respected throughout football. He made a few mistakes but in the main was an absolute colossus for this club and one of the best defenders we have ever seen in the Prem.

Stones is not fit to lace Kompanys boots. He isnt 10% of the defender and I wouldn't put him at 1% of a man/leader. He has made a name for himself on the basis that when he was a teenager at Everton, he refused to just lump the ball forward, like your typical English CB. Back then people questioned whether or not he was a good defender or would become one. Years later, some people are still asking the same question, others, figured out the answer a while ago.

Fair play to Stones, he has made the most out of his extremely limited skill set and even to this day, he is still kidding some people on.

 

[SebastianBlue]

I am truly amazed that you are trying to compare the two.

Kompany was an unbelievable defender, who at his best would have walked into any team in the world. He was also brilliant leader of men and widely respected throughout football. He made a few mistakes but in the main was an absolute colossus for this club and one of the best defenders we have ever seen in the Prem.

Stones is not fit to lace Kompanys boots. He isnt 10% of the defender and I wouldn't put him at 1% of a man/leader. He has made a name for himself on the basis that when he was a teenager at Everton, he refused to just lump the ball forward, like your typical English CB. Back then people questioned whether or not he was a good defender or would become one. Years later, some people are still asking the same question, others, figured out the answer a while ago.

Fair play to Stones, he has made the most out of his extremely limited skill set and even to this day, he is still kidding some people on.

I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said specifically about Vinny — I think, at his peak, he was one of the best defenders to ever play the game. Not sure where you may have gotten that I was saying otherwise (I even said that I think he was immense and a club legend in the post you quoted).

And you (and a few others) also seem to think I was comparing Stones now to peak Kompany, which I wasn’t. I was comparing Stones now to Kompany at Stones’ current age, to illustrate the point that development isn’t as tidy and linear as people have a tendency to believe, and that even the best defenders (in retrospect) make a decent number of mistakes. Kompany was still working to become the rock we all agree he was a year or two later (before being torn down by injuries), and my point is that I do think Stones has the potential to get there, as well.

We can obviously disagree on that point (and I could ultimately be wrong, of course; something others also seem to be incapable of admitting), and I am perfectly happy to hear why people believe that is not possible, but comparing Stones at 25 to Kompany at 25 is perfectly reasonable to create perspective and context for this discussion.

There’s really nothing “amazing” about it.

 

[nellyonthewing]

Stones is about 50% of the level of quality we should be demanding. There should be a point when we say we made a mistake ,we overpaid but now lets just get rid. For me that point was passed very early in his time here.

 

[domalino]

And you (and a few others) also seem to think I was comparing Stones now to peak Kompany, which I wasn’t. I was comparing Stones now to Kompany at Stones’ current age

Vinny was 25 going on 26 (like Stones is now) in the 2011/12 title winning season. That's pretty much peak Kompany, he's already the talismanic captain, and one of the best centre backs in the world. He gets into his second PFA TOTY in a row, and he gets most of his individual awards that season and it's the last time he played 40 games in a season before the injuries kicked in.

Stones is so, so, so far below the level Vinny was at 25.

 

[SebastianBlue]

Vinny was 25 going on 26 (like Stones is now) in the 2011/12 title winning season. That's pretty much peak Kompany, he's already the talismanic captain, and one of the best centre backs in the world. He gets into his second PFA TOTY in a row, and he gets most of his individual awards that season and it's the last time he played 40 games in a season before the injuries kicked in.

Stones is so, so, so far below the level Vinny was at 25.

2011-2012 was just getting underway when Vinny was the same age as John is now and most definitely was not yet at his peak. What’s to say Stones is not able to go on in the same way Vinny did in that season? Opinions is the answer, not facts, as you seem to think your opinion constitutes.

And this is a very strange argument to make in general, given it is based on achievements Vinny attained by 25 1/2 (FA Cup: 1) and, while I most definitely agree with his selection in the years he got TOTY (10/11, 11/12, 13/14), PFA awards are incredibly suspect for reasons many of us have already talked about at length (it’s in large part a popularity contest and Vinny was thankfully generally popular; Sergio has just apparently become popular enough in the last two seasons to get the recognition he deserved much earlier, and so on).

But, if you want to go down that road, let’s list Stones’ achievements so far:

Premier League: 2
FA Cup: 1
League Cup: 2

Oh, and was apart of a team that has set many records, contributing directly to many of them.

Not bad for a relatively young player who has no real talent, apparently.

And, again, your observation / confirmation / recollection bias continues to show itself — it’s as if Vinny was never developing or made mistakes (before, during, or after his peak). Or that every player’s development is linear.

There’s an argument to be made that Stones hasn’t been as ever present in the side as Vinny was at the same age, but that can also be countered by the reality that the expectations and levels demanded now are different to those from the 2011/2012 season — much more is required now than even then.

But I don’t imagine any of this will open your mind to anything other than what you think now and you’re always right, after all, so what’s the point of continuing to discuss?

 

[domalino]

2011-2012 was just getting underway when Vinny was the same age as John is now and most definitely was not yet at his peak. What’s to say Stones is not able to go on in the same way Vinny did in that season? Opinions is the answer, not facts, as you seem to think your opinion constitutes.

And this is a very strange argument to make in general, given it is based on achievements Vinny attained by 25 1/2 (FA Cup: 1) and, while I most definitely agree with his selection in the years he got TOTY (10/11, 11/12, 13/14), PFA awards are incredibly suspect for reasons many of us have already talked about at length (it’s in large part a popularity contest and Vinny was thankfully generally popular; Sergio has just apparently become popular enough in the last two seasons to get the recognition he deserved much earlier, and so on).

But, if you want to go down that road, let’s list Stones’ achievements so far:

Premier League: 2
FA Cup: 1
League Cup: 2

Oh, and was apart of a team that has set many records, contributing directly to many of them.

Not bad for a relatively young player who has no real talent, apparently.

And, again, your observation / confirmation / recollection bias continues to show itself — it’s as if Vinny was never developing or made mistakes (before, during, or after his peak). Or that every player’s development is linear.

There’s an argument to be made that Stones hasn’t been as ever present in the side as Vinny was at the same age, but that can also be countered by the reality that the expectations and levels demanded now are different to those from the 2011/2012 season — much more is required now than even then.

But I don’t imagine any of this will open your mind to anything other than what you think now and you’re always right, after all, so what’s the point of continuing to discuss?

Sorry, I have no idea why you're bringing up team trophies won now? What's that got to do with their individual ability at all?


With regards to age, they were to all intents and purposes the same age.

Stones' age today 25 years 6 months 4 days.

Kompany's age at this point in 2011 - 25 years 6 months 23 days

If you think Stones is going to become 11/12 Kompany in the next 19 days then good for you I guess. He'd still be a late developer because, as I said before, Kompany was alreayd one of the best CBs in the world before 11/12, and City's captain.

For someone who is so obsessed with me never admitting being wrong, you're certainly finding some interesting ways of not saying "Ah I fucked up with the Kompany comparison"

 

[SebastianBlue]

Sorry, I have no idea why you're bringing up team trophies won now?

You’re just WUMing now, mate, which I’ll let go and just move on.

Sorry, I have no idea why you're bringing up team trophies won now? What's that got to do with their individual ability at all?


With regards to age, they were to all intents and purposes the same age.

Stones' age today 25 years 6 months 4 days.

Kompany's age at this point in 2011 - 25 years 6 months 23 days

If you think Stones is going to become 11/12 Kompany in the next 19 days then good for you I guess. For someone who is so obsessed with me never admitting being wrong, you're certainly finding some interesting ways of not saying "Ah I fucked up with the Kompany comparison"

Editing my post, as you have edited your post several times after I replied, and this will be my last response:

The point you’ve just made makes absolutely no sense, as I pointed out the 2011/2012 season was just getting under way when Vinny was the same age as John is now, meaning Vinny still at some time before he reached his peak (arguably the 2013/2014) season and pointing out Stones has plenty of time to do so, as well. 19 days is irrelevant to that argument — it’s absurdist distraction, as is your tendency when making tenuous arguments.

And your response to my assertion that you’re never wrong... well done making my point for me, mate.

I’ve genuinely defended you when others have taken issue with your frustrating behaviour (many can attest to that even after our exchange yesterday), as I think you are an intelligent poster that makes many very good points (and just struggles when your opinions are contradicted, perhaps not even realising how those struggles come off), but I’m not sure there’s any value in continuing to do that. You’ve actually exceeded even my patience, which takes some doing.