Keir Starmer

[mexico1970]

I have a real issue with negative democracy, voting least worst is not how democracy should work and that is how it is panning out at the moment.

If somebody like myself can not vote for a party that i believe has the countries and of course my own interests at heart then I have to question if we actually live in a democracy at all. Basically people become disenfranchised, by that I mean i would be voting for policies I do not believe in for the wrong reasons. It really is no wonder voter apathy and turnouts are becoming an issue.

Starmer has a golden opportunity to embrace the whole of the left, yet he seems terrified of doing so and i think that is showing. Last summer 2022 he was 20 points ahead at the polls according to Britain Elects, that is now down to around 10 points. Its gone from 54-26 to 46-28 still a healthy lead, but! yes but! if he continues to alienate the left, refuse to call for a ceasefire, back down on more of his pledges that lead could well disappear and the tories as the incumbents and with boundary changes a Labour win is by no means certain.

Starmer claims to be a Socialist, why does he not have the balls to show it?

Always like reading your posts mate, I might not agree with them all the time but it seems you have a genuine opinion based on your own political integrity.

 

[domalino]

I have a real issue with negative democracy, voting least worst is not how democracy should work and that is how it is panning out at the moment.

What you’re calling negative democracy is just…democracy.

The issue is just that you seem to feel entitled to have a major political party represent your minority views

They don’t, so you constantly attack them for it, rather than just voting for a political party that represents you even though it’s going to be on the margins.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Yeah, he should be focusing on how she prefers to attack the homeless rather than attack the issue of homelessness.

She represents mainstream conservative thinking on this, homelessness, like poverty, is nothing more than the result of poor life choices.

Homelessness is created by the poor choices of the homeless themselves.

The Tories believe the lower classes deserve their fate and welfare just encourages their sloth.

This view underpins the Tories class based ideology, the rich and powerful are rich and powerful because they are the wealth creators and the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor, the result of their fecklessness, they should be grateful for what little charity they get.

 

[domalino]

She represents mainstream conservative thinking on this, homelessness, like poverty, is nothing more than the result of poor life choices.

Homelessness is created by the poor choices of the homeless themselves.

The Tories believe the lower classes deserve their fate and welfare just encourages their sloth.

This view underpins the Tories class based ideology, the rich and powerful are rich and powerful because they are the wealth creators and the poor are poor because they deserve to be poor, the result of their fecklessness, they should be grateful for what little charity they get.

I don’t think she does. I think it’s actually a very religious way of thinking. Very caste system/Victorian Christian. You deserve it because otherwise god wouldn’t make it happen to you.

IMO it’s another American culture war driven appeal to fundamental Christians and libertarians that simply don’t exist in big enough numbers to make it work here.

American views on the homeless are so much more negative and they’re treated like dangerous criminals even in very liberal coastal towns - mainly because the mental health services are so bad that a lot more dangerous people are homeless instead of in care of the stare.

I grew up in a small, pretty wealthy, conservative town in middle England and the admittedly few homeless people we had were always treated well by the dyed in the wool one nation conservatives that still make up the vast majority of the Tory base. When I go back it hasn’t changed that much. They don’t see it in the “it’s your fault”, “pull your self up with your bootstraps” way.

I think it’s a complete loser of a strategy in the UK, thankfully.

 

[remember arthur mann]

I don’t think she does. I think it’s actually a very religious way of thinking. Very caste system/Victorian Christian. You deserve it because otherwise god wouldn’t make it happen to you.

IMO it’s another American culture war driven appeal to fundamental Christians and libertarians that simply don’t exist in big enough numbers to make it work here.

American views on the homeless are so much more negative and they’re treated like dangerous criminals even in very liberal coastal towns - mainly because the mental health services are so bad that a lot more dangerous people are homeless instead of in care of the stare.

I grew up in a small, pretty wealthy, conservative town in middle England and the admittedly few homeless people we had were always treated well by the dyed in the wool one nation conservatives that still make up the vast majority of the Tory base. When I go back it hasn’t changed that much. They don’t see it in the “it’s your fault”, “pull your self up with your bootstraps” way.

I think it’s a complete loser of a strategy in the UK, thankfully.

Nail on the head with the caste system.
That's Britain today, they still see us as the peasant working class.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I don’t think she does. I think it’s actually a very religious way of thinking. Very caste system/Victorian Christian. You deserve it because otherwise god wouldn’t make it happen to you.

IMO it’s another American culture war driven appeal to fundamental Christians and libertarians that simply don’t exist in big enough numbers to make it work here.

American views on the homeless are so much more negative and they’re treated like dangerous criminals even in very liberal coastal towns - mainly because the mental health services are so bad that a lot more dangerous people are homeless instead of in care of the stare.

I grew up in a small, pretty wealthy, conservative town in middle England and the admittedly few homeless people we had were always treated well by the dyed in the wool one nation conservatives that still make up the vast majority of the Tory base. When I go back it hasn’t changed that much. They don’t see it in the “it’s your fault”, “pull your self up with your bootstraps” way.

I think it’s a complete loser of a strategy in the UK, thankfully.

Chris Steward – a Conservative councillor in York – said people shouldn’t donate food to food banks because poor families “can’t budget” and if they were given food would only have “more money to spend on alcohol, cigarettes etc“.

Philip Davies – Tory MP for Shipley – thinks disabled people should take “a lower rate of pay” than the minimum wage to “help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder” because that is the “real world we live in”.

Steve Hilton – senior adviser to David Cameron and Tory strategy director – said the government should boost economic growth by abolishing all working mothers’ maternity leave and rights.

Iain Duncan Smith – Tory Work and Pensions Secretary – quoted the Nazi slogan above the gates of Auschwitz Arbeit Mach Frei (work makes free) when he said about the government’s workfare programme that “work actually helps free people.”

Christopher Chope – Tory MP for Christchurch – regards people like waiters and waitresses as servants. Talking about a visit to a House of Commons restaurant he said: “The service was absolutely fantastic because there was three-to-one service – three servants for each person sitting down“.

Rachel MacLean a Tory minister has been labelled “out of touch” for suggesting people who are struggling with the cost of living crisis should simply work more hours or get a better job.

 

[domalino]

Philip Davies – Tory MP for Shipley – thinks disabled people should take “a lower rate of pay” than the minimum wage to “help them get on their first rung of the jobs ladder” because that is the “real world we live in”.

Steve Hilton – senior adviser to David Cameron and Tory strategy director – said the government should boost economic growth by abolishing all working mothers’ maternity leave and rights.

Iain Duncan Smith – Tory Work and Pensions Secretary – quoted the Nazi slogan above the gates of Auschwitz Arbeit Mach Frei (work makes free) when he said about the government’s workfare programme that “work actually helps free people.”

Chris Steward – a Conservative councillor in York – said people shouldn’t donate food to food banks because poor families “can’t budget” and if they were given food would only have “more money to spend on alcohol, cigarettes etc“.

Christopher Chope – Tory MP for Christchurch – regards people like waiters and waitresses as servants. Talking about a visit to a House of Commons restaurant he said: “The service was absolutely fantastic because there was three-to-one service – three servants for each person sitting down“.

Rachel MacLean a Tory minister has been labelled “out of touch” for suggesting people who are struggling with the cost of living crisis should simply work more hours or get a better job.

Sorry I thought you said she represented mainstream conservative thinking but you’ve quoted a bunch of right wing Tory politicians who are going to lose 200 seats in the next election because their views don’t represent their voters.

She’s got a lot of support among the politicians I grant you that, but outside of that bubble it’s nowhere near as hardline.

And ask a corbynista about party membership vs the majority.

You’re not completely wrong, obviously the tories are not fans of the welfare state, but criminalising homelessness and the people who help them? That’s not mainstream conservatism.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Sorry I thought you said she represented mainstream conservative thinking but you’ve quoted a bunch of right wing Tory politicians who are going to lose 200 seats in the next election because their views don’t represent their voters.

She’s got a lot of support among the politicians I grant you that, but outside of that bubble it’s nowhere near as hardline.

And ask a corbynista about party membership vs the majority.

You talked about your life surrounded by one nation Tories. Old school one nation Tories still feel a sense of civic duty, they're not monsters, I've lived and worked with them all my life and on the whole they are very decent people, love the country and its institutions and feel a duty of care for those less well off.

They are often the backbone of the charity sector.

The guiding principles of old school Toryism include the promotion of private property and enterprise, the maintenance of a strong military, and the preservation of traditional cultural values and institutions.

Those traditional cultural values have at their core the class system and the philosophical underpinning of the class system is that those at the top deserve to be at the top and those at the bottom deserve to be at the bottom, without this philosophical underpinning there's no raison d'etre for conservatism, it's all just Marxist theory of the exploited masses under the heel of the greedy owners of production, or the fascist dogma of the untermensch ruled by an iron fist.

 

[Postman Pep]

That will be why he and Labour are still rising in the polls will it?

Two reasons I can say your analysis is wrong -

1/ He needs to win back those red wall seats that went Tory. They went Tory on Brexit and immigration fears. Given that Labour are shedding pro-HAMAS Muslim councillors that makes Labour - in the gammon eyes - a more attractive proposition.

2/ Whilst a few councillors quit as does a Shadow Front Bencher nobody has heard of quits and we have Owen Jones banging on all that is happening in a void because Starmer is protected by Sunak's nemesis in Suella Braverman who is hogging the headlines - stoking internal Party divisions and also public division whist Badenoch is said to be looking to come through the middle and take Sunak's job. Its chaos there and is a total distraction from what is a minor squabble by comparison in Labour. Braverman is Starmers best attack dog right now.

Given that the Israelis are literally planting flags in the ground I'm struggling to see an end point where it isn't a 'live' issue come the election. That said I agree it's difficult to see a scenario where it could cost them a majority. However there could well be some anti war blowback in a handful of seats in a nod to 2005 post Iraq.

As ever I have my eye on young Wesley with a majority of less than 5K in a seat with a worrying demographic if you keeping on endorsing this shit for the sake of your 'career '.

It will be a night of Portillo moments...... with an out of scale majority forgive me wanting at least one scalp

 

[bluethrunthru]

Given that the Israelis are literally planting flags in the ground I'm struggling to see an end point where it isn't a 'live' issue come the election. That said I agree it's difficult to see a scenario where it could cost them a majority. However there could well be some anti war blowback in a handful of seats in a nod to 2005 post Iraq.

As ever I have my eye on young Wesley with a majority of less than 5K in a seat with a worrying demographic if you keeping on endorsing this shit for the sake of your 'career '.

It will be a night of Portillo moments...... with an out of scale majority forgive me wanting at least one scalp

I see where you are coming from BUT....... despite Ukraine and the Middle East "fixing" them will not be a priority to people here come the GE. In the unlikely event he gets inflation down to half its peak thats just prices rising less slowly not getting any cheaper in real terms. Today its revealed nearly 20% of people are in mortgage arrears - 120k are due to come off fixed rates soon. Utility bills remain high etc etc etc - there is plenty internationally that is a worry but if Sunak personally stops Ukrainians being shelled does that have any sway over a voter about to default on the mortgage or a middle class voter plucking up the nerve to visit a food bank?