Keir Starmer

[hilts]

What you’re calling negative democracy is just…democracy.

The issue is just that you seem to feel entitled to have a major political party represent your minority views

They don’t, so you constantly attack them for it, rather than just voting for a political party that represents you even though it’s going to be on the margins.

So what you are saying is those who don't agree with the 2 major parties should vote for one of them that represent their ' margins'. And then because people feel the need to vote for one of those parties you can claim that even though a lot might not agree with them they should choose one anyhow. And then you call that democracy ? Pmsl.

Fuck me pick shit sandwich a or shit sandwich b, gobble it and claim it was the people's sandwich


Bravo.

 

[The perfect fumble]

What you’re calling negative democracy is just…democracy.

The issue is just that you seem to feel entitled to have a major political party represent your minority views

They don’t, so you constantly attack them for it, rather than just voting for a political party that represents you even though it’s going to be on the margins.

On the margins in first past the post means irrelevance and I mean irrelevance, no political clout whatsoever, zero, zilch, nada,

First past the post means the two main political parties dominate, with one party, the Tories, dominating more than the other. It means that for the most part we've avoided all those "messy" coalitions that characterise politics in continental Europe, that bland social democratic mush that emerges when competing interests have to be accommodated in order to cobble together a government that no one voted for.

 

[domalino]

On the margins in first past the post means irrelevance and I mean irrelevance, no political clout whatsoever, zero, zilch, nada,

First past the post means the two main political parties dominate, with one party, the Tories, dominating more than the other. It means that for the most part we've avoided all those "messy" coalitions that characterise politics in continental Europe, that bland social democratic mush that emerges when competing interests have to be accommodated in order to cobble together a government that no one voted for.

FPTP is also why we’ve been insulated from the rise of the far right in European politics, where in Hungary, France, Poland, Spain Israel, Finland, Greece and Austria, far right and sometimes outright neo nazi political groups are now grabbing power.

It’s not perfect, but there’s an also a lot of benefits, which is just one reason it’s survived for 900 years in this country and why the leaders of the French Revolution and a United States copied it as they started their revolutionary democracies.

 

[BobKowalski]

FPTP is also why we’ve been insulated from the rise of the far right in European politics, where in Hungary, France, Poland, Spain Israel, Finland, Greece and Austria, far right and sometimes outright neo nazi political groups are now grabbing power.

It’s not perfect, but there’s an also a lot of benefits, which is just one reason it’s survived for 900 years in this country and why the leaders of the French Revolution and a United States copied it as they started their revolutionary democracies.

The far right is currently in power in the UK.

 

[The perfect fumble]

FPTP is also why we’ve been insulated from the rise of the far right in European politics, where in Hungary, France, Poland, Spain Israel, Finland, Greece and Austria, far right and sometimes outright neo nazi political groups are now grabbing power.

It’s not perfect, but there’s an also a lot of benefits, which is just one reason it’s survived for 1100 years in this country and why the leaders of the French Revolution and a United States copied it as they started their revolutionary democracies.

On the whole I agree, but in the absence of a route to power for fringe groups, they infiltrate the mainstream and in some cases take over. All those decent Tories you exonerated from having anything to do with the ghastly Tory wankers I quoted, voted for those wankers, and if they reject those tossers at the next election, which they surely will, it won't be because they recoil at their ghastliness, many of them agree with it, it'll be because of inflation, high taxation, stagnant house prices, their pension pots, corruption, general incompetence and so on.

The zeitgeist of this country, has, for the best part of a century, been dominated by the middle class, you know stiff upper lip decency, the BBC, warm beer, cups of tea, cricket and not scaring the horses, they were the bulwark against the dictators, it's why the bourgeoisie is seen as the main obstacle for both the extreme left and right.

But "extreme" viewpoints find a way, Reform UK, just as UKIP before them, are threatening to field candidates across the board at the next election, they'll not win a single seat, but the threat exists that they'll siphon off enough votes from a splintering, frightened and increasingly reactionary middle class to turn a very bad night for the Tories into political oblivion, so what we get is the Tories lurching ever rightwards to appease and outflank them.

But if you can't scare a middle class that's lost its moral anchor, what better way to muddy their certainties than to join them? We live in a bizarre world where folk who sit in the road in just stop oil protests come from the same class as those who support Braverman and think Farage is a sound bloke.

Strange days indeed.

Whatever happened to Captain Mainwaring I wonder?

"Do tell him your name Muhammad."

 

[domalino]

So what you are saying is those who don't agree with the 2 major parties should vote for one of them that represent their ' margins'. And then because people feel the need to vote for one of those parties you can claim that even though a lot might not agree with them they should choose one anyhow. And then you call that democracy ? Pmsl.

Fuck me pick shit sandwich a or shit sandwich b, gobble it and claim it was the people's sandwich


Bravo.

This is literally the opposite of what I said, try reading my comment again.

 

[threespires]

FPTP is also why we’ve been insulated from the rise of the far right in European politics, where in Hungary, France, Poland, Spain Israel, Finland, Greece and Austria, far right and sometimes outright neo nazi political groups are now grabbing power.

It’s not perfect, but there’s an also a lot of benefits, which is just one reason it’s survived for 900 years in this country and why the leaders of the French Revolution and a United States copied it as they started their revolutionary democracies.

I think the only FPTP state that is currently in the top echelon (very sustainable) of the Fragile State Index is Canada. That index obviously covers multiple variables and correlation isn't causation but it does at least suggest that PR systems don't inherently result in unstable environments.

'Extremists' will find a way to engage with any political system, in our system it's done via Entryism as demonstrated to little effect by Trotskyists in the 80's and much more effectively by the far-right in the last 10 years.

 

[Rascal]

What you’re calling negative democracy is just…democracy.

Democracy should be inclusive, at the moment our democracy is becoming increasingly exclusive. I feel i am being excluded from the democratic process because no party reflects my views. FPTP is not democracy, it excludes views that the current mainstream parties propose. Where is my voice if i am subjected to a choice of bad or worse and of course that could mean better and best.

The issue is just that you seem to feel entitled to have a major political party represent your minority view
They don’t, so you constantly attack them for it, rather than just voting for a political party that represents you even though it’s going to be on the margins.

This bit is really patronising, I do not care if a big political party represents my views, I want a party I can vote for that reflects my views. The Labour party has at times when the bogey man word "Socialism" was the forefront, now it is a safe centrist party that excludes Socialists and we are demeaned as being "far left, hard left, commies" which in the UK media world demonises you in a fashion not seen since Macarthy's red scare tactics in the USA. I am not a red under the bed, but because of my Socialist ideals I am ostracised and told I am a dinosaur, who is probably anti semitic as well, despite being a lifelong anti racist.

The great trick of the right and the centrists is to make people think that us on the left want equality of outcome, you are not daft mate, you have read the stories about things like no losers at school sports days etc. What they never ever say is that people like me on the left want equality of opportunity.

Every child in this country deserves an equal chance to be the very best they can, Tory philosophy and to some extent centrist philosophy extols the virtue of individualist triumph. I believe in the collective success of the majority not the success of the few. equality

Yet i am wrong according to people because I want a country based on fairness, equality and liberty. If believing that fairness, equality and liberty marks me out to be a ****, well thank you.

I will be that ****.

 

[BrianW]

The bottom line is that FPTP forces us to vote for the big party we detest least, when democracy should be about voting for what you believe in.

I would sooner have a few fascists and a few communists in parliament than pretend that the joke system we have now amounts to 'democracy'. The reality is that the great bulk of the population is not genuinely represented at all. Ideally, I would like to see the Tories and Labour each split into two, three or even four smaller parties. Under FPTP this would be electoral suicide. It ought not to be. It should, for example, be possible to vote for a One Nation Conservative or a Socialist and know that your vote is not wasted and will be reflected in the allocation of parliamentary seats.

 

[domalino]

Democracy should be inclusive, at the moment our democracy is becoming increasingly exclusive. I feel i am being excluded from the democratic process because no party reflects my views. FPTP is not democracy, it excludes views that the current mainstream parties propose. Where is my voice if i am subjected to a choice of bad or worse and of course that could mean better and best.

This bit is really patronising, I do not care if a big political party represents my views, I want a party I can vote for that reflects my views. The Labour party has at times when the bogey man word "Socialism" was the forefront, now it is a safe centrist party that excludes Socialists and we are demeaned as being "far left, hard left, commies" which in the UK media world demonises you in a fashion not seen since Macarthy's red scare tactics in the USA. I am not a red under the bed, but because of my Socialist ideals I am ostracised and told I am a dinosaur, who is probably anti semitic as well, despite being a lifelong anti racist.

The great trick of the right and the centrists is to make people think that us on the left want equality of outcome, you are not daft mate, you have read the stories about things like no losers at school sports days etc. What they never ever say is that people like me on the left want equality of opportunity.

Every child in this country deserves an equal chance to be the very best they can, Tory philosophy and to some extent centrist philosophy extols the virtue of individualist triumph. I believe in the collective success of the majority not the success of the few. equality

Yet i am wrong according to people because I want a country based on fairness, equality and liberty. If believing that fairness, equality and liberty marks me out to be a ****, well thank you.

I will be that ****.

Democracy is inclusive, but again you’re mistaking democracy for an entitlement for your views to be in power.

There is a party that represents your views and you’re free to vote for them, but you choose not to because you don’t want to accept that you’re in the minority, so you limit yourself to only voting for the 2 major parties and complain about them.

That’s not the system, or democracy, denying you the ability ti vote for someone who represents you, that’s YOU choosing not to.

If believing that fairness, equality and liberty marks me out to be a ****, well thank you.

I will be that ****.

Ooh well done, aren’t you a martyr! And such unique opinions, no one else believes in…fairness and equality. And LIBERTY! no one else believes in that, no wonder you can’t find someone to vote for.

Honestly that’s one of the most pathetic, self pitying things I’ve seen written on here, and it’s pretty obvious you’re more interested in feeling persecuted than anything else.

Vote for the party that represents you.

Or don’t, and vote for a major party.

Or don’t vote.

No one is stopping you. No one is forcing you to do anything you don’t want to.

But you’re not entitled to a government that specifically represents YOUR views, democracy means the majority rules, not the minority.