Keir Starmer

[The Future’s Blue!]

Wow, not much to read in those 5 pages, made easier when you skip the majority of posts.

Anyway, sounds like Starmer has hit the ground running, looking good for the foreseeable.

 

[kaz7]

Fuck off with the putin ukraine stuff , there is a thread for that ,bigga spoiling yet another thread

 

[Bigga]

I didn't bring the Ukraine stuff into it, you idiot!

How about read who mentioned it first, dummy.

 

[metalblue]

It was more complex than the west failed to engage with Yeltsin. Yeltsin was total unsuitable as a leader. I remember one occasion when he was too pissed to get off a plane for a state visit. His lack of leadership, favouring of oligarchs and general ineptitude led to a situation where a malign actor like Putin was able to subvert the fledgling democracy that was forming there.

Once Putin was in place there was plenty of engagement from the rest of the world in spite of Chechnya, Georgia and various other situations that Putin caused. They were even given the World Cup four years after they first invaded Ukraine.

There’s only one place to point the real blame and nothing the west has done in the intervening years made it more or less likely to lead us where we are now.

I didn’t say the west didn’t engage, my premise is they should have better engaged. It is certainly complex, less double speak out of Washington and the Pentagon (and thus Clinton) and more sensitivity towards the causes of domestics pressures faced by Yeltsin and other moderates would have resulted in better outcomes. It certainly would have avoided the Budapest ”cold peace” outburst.

There is absolutely no doubt that the US played their hand badly, Clinton even said as much in his memoirs. This is not opinion or subjective - you could argue it wasn’t done with intent and that might be fair. The Partnership for Peace was a dead duck with the US’s incompatible two track approach of expanding NATO eastward along with some parallel security arrangement that tagged Russia in there - the fact if ever got off the ground is a miracle - it’s shaky nature evident in the bombing of Yugoslavia. Sure there was an inherent distrust domestically in Russia, even among liberals, but the PFP would have alleviated that if managed better, another significant factor in all of this, often overlooked, is Russia was no longer selling weapons to the former Soviet bloc - they were now buying western NATO standard weapons - this damaged Russian industry, these people had influence, they were In Yeltsin’s ear and people feared for their jobs. To coin a phrase “it’s the economy, stupid”. Yeltsin wanted something slower, under the banner of PFP, something he could sell domestically with slow changes that he could better manage. He wasn’t even ideologically opposed to NATO expansion.

Early Putin was a different beast to the one he is today - he wanted to join NATO at the start of his presidency.

 

[hilts]

Average sentences are up by a third under the Tories so it's a proposal to reduce by 10% sentences that the Tories have increased by over 30% - to no obvious effect on deterrence or reoffending.

Headlines in the Tory press are not a basis for policy.

How do you add up non victims?

 

[west didsblue]

Early Putin was a different beast to the one he is today - he wanted to join NATO at the start of his presidency.

Not sure that’s true. It’s widely believed that he instigated the Moscow apartment bombings when he was PM in 1999 the response to which was the war in Chechnya. At the time Putin took huge credit for the response which probably secured his victory in the presidential elections later that year.
He’s always been a **** who thinks nothing of getting fellow Russians killed to prop up his power base.

 

[Chris in London]

To be fair, one was a woman ;)

Which one, May or Truss?

 

[west didsblue]

Which one, May or Truss?

May presumably. The other was a lettuce.

 

[metalblue]

May presumably. The other was a lettuce.

Is the correct answer.

 

[metalblue]

Not sure that’s true. It’s widely believed that he instigated the Moscow apartment bombings when he was PM in 1999 the response to which was the war in Chechnya. At the time Putin took huge credit for the response which probably secured his victory in the presidential elections later that year.
He’s always been a **** who thinks nothing of getting fellow Russians killed to prop up his power base.

Fascinating as this is and would love to talk some more on it it’s probably best we leave it there else @kaz7 will put us both on the naughty step ;)