Keir Starmer

mosssideblue said:
Diplomacy with Putin, look where that got Ukraine
Click to expand...

TBF the opportunity for diplomacy was long gone before he’d invaded back in 2016 but there was a time the west could and should have better engaged with Putin (and his predecessors) and maybe, just maybe, history would be different.

Broadly speaking the west (primarily the US) have dismissed Russia as a bit player since the collapse of the Soviet Union and end of the Cold War - we simply failed to cash in the peace dividend at the time. Russia wanted to face the west, Russia wanted to have a vital role in Europe. The west saw Russia as no longer a threat, weak if you like. Someone with a big ego was always going to eventually take that badly and stop trying to entertain the west. Unfortunately that someone with a big ego was a bigger **** and whilst it’s no excuse for invading Ukraine but we can’t wash our hands of any culpability in where we are today.
 
metalblue said:
TBF the opportunity for diplomacy was long gone before he’d invaded back in 2016 but there was a time the west could and should have better engaged with Putin (and his predecessors) and maybe, just maybe, history would be different.

Broadly speaking the west (primarily the US) have dismissed Russia as a bit player since the collapse of the Soviet Union and end of the Cold War - we simply failed to cash in the peace dividend at the time. Russia wanted to face the west, Russia wanted to have a vital role in Europe. The west saw Russia as no longer a threat, weak if you like. Someone with a big ego was always going to eventually take that badly and stop trying to entertain the west. Unfortunately that someone with a big ego was a bigger **** and whilst it’s no excuse for invading Ukraine but we can’t wash our hands of any culpability in where we are today.
Click to expand...
Genuine question, why was it up to the West to better engage with Putin? How do you appease a tyrannical megalomaniac?

You can't sit down and negotiate with people like this; and it's worth noting that negotiations have been attempted since 2022.
 
Blue and true said:
Genuine question, why was it up to the West to better engage with Putin? How do you appease a tyrannical megalomaniac?

You can't sit down and negotiate with people like this; and it's worth noting that negotiations have been attempted since 2022.
Click to expand...

Putin was the result of western failures rather than the start. Russia was already pulling back under Yeltsin when Putin took the reins, the west failed to reset anything even if that were possible. The invasion of Ukraine was the best part of 2 decades in the making.

History is littered with examples of actions causing reactions many years later - diffferent actions = different outcomes. The west’s failure to engage with Yeltsin is where I place the blame. We are where we are and you can’t negotiate now.
 
metalblue said:
Putin was the result of western failures rather than the start. Russia was already pulling back under Yeltsin when Putin took the reins, the west failed to reset anything even if that were possible. The invasion of Ukraine was the best part of 2 decades in the making.

History is littered with examples of actions causing reactions many years later - diffferent actions = different outcomes. The west’s failure to engage with Yeltsin is where I place the blame. We are where we are and you can’t negotiate now.
Click to expand...
It was more complex than the west failed to engage with Yeltsin. Yeltsin was total unsuitable as a leader. I remember one occasion when he was too pissed to get off a plane for a state visit. His lack of leadership, favouring of oligarchs and general ineptitude led to a situation where a malign actor like Putin was able to subvert the fledgling democracy that was forming there.

Once Putin was in place there was plenty of engagement from the rest of the world in spite of Chechnya, Georgia and various other situations that Putin caused. They were even given the World Cup four years after they first invaded Ukraine.

There’s only one place to point the real blame and nothing the west has done in the intervening years made it more or less likely to lead us where we are now.
 
Last edited:
metalblue said:
Putin was the result of western failures rather than the start. Russia was already pulling back under Yeltsin when Putin took the reins, the west failed to reset anything even if that were possible. The invasion of Ukraine was the best part of 2 decades in the making.

History is littered with examples of actions causing reactions many years later - diffferent actions = different outcomes. The west’s failure to engage with Yeltsin is where I place the blame. We are where we are and you can’t negotiate now.
Click to expand...
The USA needs Russia to become an enemy of the West so that it can use NATO to control Europe. After the fall of the Soviet Union, the Russian Federation could not be accepted by the West because it was too big. If Russia becomes a part of Europe, Europe will become too strong and the US will lose control over Europe. All of this has nothing to do with democracy, it is the oldest theme in human history, the confrontation of power.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
✖
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.