Keir Starmer

[Rascal]

I've not read the whole essay but Brexit wouldn't have been an issue if Corbyn had campaigned for it, as 80% if his momentum supporters wanted (one of the few things that the vast majority of the party membership, left centre or right, agreed on).

Don't read it then, just spout rubbish about momentum instead

 

[Vic]

Don't read it then, just spout rubbish about momentum instead

What rubbish? 65% of Momentum members wanted Momentum to campaign for Remain and then 80% wanted a second referendum.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

You have got the Tories doing an absolute shocking job . You have got boris Johnson who has given up before even starting and could not give a shit given he nearly died has a new wife and baby.

perfect chance for labour to claw back ground on the Tories.

what do they do, all start internal squabbling instead .

 

[Ancient Citizen]

The grass roots Labour support will never get Labour elected.

All the people who abstained from voting in December or went and voted for the Lib Dem’s or Conservatives because they just couldn’t stomach Corbyn, the people in the background behind him and the direction they felt Labour had taken; are going to be more likely to come back to vote Labour in the future if ties are cut with what a lot of people saw as a shower of shite.

And they’re the voters who’ll most likely get Labour a victory.

Party members, grass roots etc; mean absolutely nothing, and won't win you elections,
the Tories membership is very small, they got an 80 seat majority. The left of the Labour
party will never win, despite those followers pushing for it, Corbyn and his ilk have just shown
there is no appetite for it.
Starmer, so far, has just followed his lawyer path, simply dissecting certain points and policies,
criticising them, but not offering alternatives, which is OK to keep things ticking over,
but sooner or later, he's going to have to face the music. His biggest problem is
he's no Blair, is devoid of charisma, and doesn't chime with 'Middle England,'
so will struggle imo.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

I would be surprised if Labour win another election in my lifetime, I am 54 now and the splits in the party caused by the centrists are deep. The centrists never accepted the democratic choice of the members in electing Corbyn just like they never accepted the democratic choice of the people over Brexit. They have marginalised and purged the left of the party and the broad Labour movement is finished. The centrist/Blairites are no different from the Tories in that they exist for self fulfilment not for the good of the people or the nation. Self serving cunts like Austin undermined Labour at every turn and got rewarded with a Lordship from Johnson.

On another forum that I frequent I said before the BREXIT referendum that it was a calculated stroke of genius from Osborne to hold a referendum, Cameron was too fucking stupid to see it, but Osborne as much as I despise the **** saw the opportunity to destroy the Labour party and took the gamble. It worked too, Labour should always have been the party of leave but it allowed itself to be hijacked by the FBFE fruitcakes/ metropolitan liberal elites like Starmer and Kinnock et al and they betrayed the working class that had always been Labour supporters. The red wall voting Tory in support of BREXIT should have been a massive wake up call but the parties position was so ambigious and Starmers idiotic compromise led it to defeat. This could be done because of the traitorous cunts at Labour HQ and the backstabbing pro EU MPs like Austin, Ummuna and others who chose to support the neo-liberal corporate loving EU over the working class needs of the UK population.

UKIP was as big threat to Labour as it was the Tories and Labours stupidity allowed Farage to gain traction and instead of Labour leading a leave campaign based on Socialist values we got a leave campaign based on Nationalist values and those desperate for change chose nationalism disguised as patriotism over Socialism. Labour should have backed leave as Labour has traditionally been a patriotic party of the working class that espoused real British values of welfarism and compassion rather than Conservative truisms of exploitation and subjugation to corporate capitalism.

If Labour is not the party of the working class then it is nothing, the last manifesto was a good one but it was undermined continually by members of its own party who allowed other issues to cloud the manifesto and instead of supporting the leadership actively worked against it and supported coups against the members wishes. A party divided never gets elected. The fucking idiotic pro-EU labour lobby have made a no deal Brexit more likely instead of a managed Socialist Brexit we could have had. Their wanton stupidity not only demeaned Labour it helped the Tories get elected and for that I will never forgive the cunts, because they have wreaked fucking havoc as always because they are biggest bunch of clueless cunts to ever be elected and its the Labour centrist/pro EU balloons who are too blame for it. Now the silly cunts expect the likes of me to back them after they have wrecked the party and they can get to fuck because they don't have a socialist bone between them.

I do genuinely think the Labour party as an electoral force is finished and a new party of the left is needed, one that is Socialist, anti EU and internationalist, a party that champions the working class, supports the NHS and the welfare state, is strong on defence, policing and is against corporatism and nationalism. It should be progressive and support public ownership of national assets, support collectivism over individualism and not be afraid to tackle inequality.

In the meanwhile Starmer will limp on, the Tory press will love him as he is no threat to establishment norms and the damaging inequalities in our society will continue to increase expotentially as the capitalist class continue to exploit the working class.

Johnson is a lucky ****, the worst PM in our history has an opposition who lickspittle his backside and offer no alternative to the the damage his idiocy is bringing upon our country.

If there was a God i would pray for him to help us out of this shitstorm but there isnt so we are fucked and we will be fucked for generations.

Good post Rascal, cheers

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Party members, grass roots etc; mean absolutely nothing, and won't win you elections,
the Tories membership is very small, they got an 80 seat majority. The left of the Labour
party will never win, despite those followers pushing for it, Corbyn and his ilk have just shown
there is no appetite for it.
Starmer, so far, has just followed his lawyer path, simply dissecting certain points and policies,
criticising them, but not offering alternatives, which is OK to keep things ticking over,
but sooner or later, he's going to have to face the music. His biggest problem is
he's no Blair, is devoid of charisma, and doesn't chime with 'Middle England,'
so will struggle imo.

It would have been interesting if Labour had pushed for Leave from the beginning, like Rascal says.

Socialists have always been Euro-sceptics. If Labour had been the Leave party, going with their socialist manifesto in December, I think the GE would have looked very different.

But Corbyn (or the split of the party) couldn’t have played Brexit any worse if he tried.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

It would have been interesting if Labour had pushed for Leave from the beginning, like Rascal says.

Socialists have always been Euro-sceptics. If Labour had been the Leave party, going with their socialist manifesto in December, I think the GE would have looked very different.

But Corbyn (or the split of the party) couldn’t have played Brexit any worse if he tried.

They went with their pro EU element, a stupid stance to take, as the majority
of their constituencies were leave, millions of pro EU London Labour voters
ended up meaning Jack shit. Plus, taking a contrary approach just for the sake
of it, to simply 'Oppose' when presented with a unique situation re Brexit was another mistake.
Then, after seeing support crumble, they decided to run with the
hare and the hounds, and ended up with a convoluted Brexit policy that made
no sense, vote for us, we'll negotiate a great new deal, but we recommend that
you reject it, and vote to remain, absolute idiocy.
But their biggest turn off was the leadership, and those supporting it, Britain won't
vote for far left policies.

 

[The perfect fumble]

I would be surprised if Labour win another election in my lifetime, I am 54 now and the splits in the party caused by the centrists are deep. The centrists never accepted the democratic choice of the members in electing Corbyn just like they never accepted the democratic choice of the people over Brexit. They have marginalised and purged the left of the party and the broad Labour movement is finished. The centrist/Blairites are no different from the Tories in that they exist for self fulfilment not for the good of the people or the nation. Self serving cunts like Austin undermined Labour at every turn and got rewarded with a Lordship from Johnson.

On another forum that I frequent I said before the BREXIT referendum that it was a calculated stroke of genius from Osborne to hold a referendum, Cameron was too fucking stupid to see it, but Osborne as much as I despise the **** saw the opportunity to destroy the Labour party and took the gamble. It worked too, Labour should always have been the party of leave but it allowed itself to be hijacked by the FBFE fruitcakes/ metropolitan liberal elites like Starmer and Kinnock et al and they betrayed the working class that had always been Labour supporters. The red wall voting Tory in support of BREXIT should have been a massive wake up call but the parties position was so ambigious and Starmers idiotic compromise led it to defeat. This could be done because of the traitorous cunts at Labour HQ and the backstabbing pro EU MPs like Austin, Ummuna and others who chose to support the neo-liberal corporate loving EU over the working class needs of the UK population.

UKIP was as big threat to Labour as it was the Tories and Labours stupidity allowed Farage to gain traction and instead of Labour leading a leave campaign based on Socialist values we got a leave campaign based on Nationalist values and those desperate for change chose nationalism disguised as patriotism over Socialism. Labour should have backed leave as Labour has traditionally been a patriotic party of the working class that espoused real British values of welfarism and compassion rather than Conservative truisms of exploitation and subjugation to corporate capitalism.

If Labour is not the party of the working class then it is nothing, the last manifesto was a good one but it was undermined continually by members of its own party who allowed other issues to cloud the manifesto and instead of supporting the leadership actively worked against it and supported coups against the members wishes. A party divided never gets elected. The fucking idiotic pro-EU labour lobby have made a no deal Brexit more likely instead of a managed Socialist Brexit we could have had. Their wanton stupidity not only demeaned Labour it helped the Tories get elected and for that I will never forgive the cunts, because they have wreaked fucking havoc as always because they are biggest bunch of clueless cunts to ever be elected and its the Labour centrist/pro EU balloons who are too blame for it. Now the silly cunts expect the likes of me to back them after they have wrecked the party and they can get to fuck because they don't have a socialist bone between them.

I do genuinely think the Labour party as an electoral force is finished and a new party of the left is needed, one that is Socialist, anti EU and internationalist, a party that champions the working class, supports the NHS and the welfare state, is strong on defence, policing and is against corporatism and nationalism. It should be progressive and support public ownership of national assets, support collectivism over individualism and not be afraid to tackle inequality.

In the meanwhile Starmer will limp on, the Tory press will love him as he is no threat to establishment norms and the damaging inequalities in our society will continue to increase expotentially as the capitalist class continue to exploit the working class.

Johnson is a lucky ****, the worst PM in our history has an opposition who lickspittle his backside and offer no alternative to the the damage his idiocy is bringing upon our country.

If there was a God i would pray for him to help us out of this shitstorm but there isnt so we are fucked and we will be fucked for generations.

Blair convinced the Labour Party that the problem they had was the Party itself, so he destroyed it to save it, and New Labour was born.

Starmer would love to do the same, but New Labour was a one time deal, so now he's left with the title of leader of the Labour Party and fuck all else.

I've left the party after 40 odd years, I'm 63, I'll not see a Labour government in my life time.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

Blair convinced the Labour Party that the problem they had was the Party itself, so he destroyed it to save it, and New Labour was born.

Starmer would love to do the same, but New Labour was a one time deal, so now he's left with the title of leader of the Labour Party and fuck all else.

I've left the party after 40 odd years, I'm 63, I'll not see a Labour government in my life time.

Johnson won the last election on the back of populist BS. Brexit is a bunch of lies that will fall apart over the next 12 months. Take that away from the tories and what is left? Sleaze, corruption and incompetence.

Give it 12 months and see how it looks then.

 

[Vic]

It would have been interesting if Labour had pushed for Leave from the beginning, like Rascal says.

Socialists have always been Euro-sceptics. If Labour had been the Leave party, going with their socialist manifesto in December, I think the GE would have looked very different.

But Corbyn (or the split of the party) couldn’t have played Brexit any worse if he tried.

Why would any responsible party looking to the best interests of the country support leaving the EU? It wasn't an issue till the Tories made it one.

Your last sentence is right though.

No Corbyn, no Brexit. Simple as that.

 

[Rascal]

What rubbish? 65% of Momentum members wanted Momentum to campaign for Remain and then 80% wanted a second referendum.

Momentum ffs is a tiny part of the overall membership. Around 40,000 out of 550,000

There influence is hugely overegged

 

[Rascal]

Britain won't
vote for far left policies.

What was far left about the last Labour manifesto?

 

[Rascal]

Why would any responsible party looking to the best interests of the country support leaving the EU? .

This thinking cost Labour an election victory and caused the huge split in the party.

No Socialist party can possibly back an institution that is based on capitalism, protectionism and corporatism. The paradox is the parties somehow managed to get it the wrong way round, the Tories should have been pro-remain and Labour Pro-leave, but the fear of UKIP pushed the Tories to the right and the legacy of Blair was to leave Labour towards the centre. There is also the rise of English Nationalism which played a factor, a legacy of the failure of devolution to find a means for England to have its own parliament. Fintan 0'Toole explains it brilliantly in his book the politics and pain of brexit.

The left of the Labour party always had a tradition of eurosceptism based around Benn, Shore and Foot, the centrists such as Owen, Williams were pro -EU and left to form the SDP, showed their colours didnt they, Blair returned the party to the ground occupied by those who left to form the SDP and marginalised the left wing just as Starmer is doing. Whats the saying, failure is doing something over and over again and getting the same result or something. Why on earth vote for a labour party that is pro-EU as its against its very core beliefs, the Labour party and capitalism doesn't fit, although Starmer is trying to find the glass slipper that does. Plitics of Cinderella against politics of Porky the pig is what we have in the UK right now.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

This thinking cost Labour an election victory and caused the huge split in the party.

No Socialist party can possibly back an institution that is based on capitalism, protectionism and corporatism. The paradox is the parties somehow managed to get it the wrong way round, the Tories should have been pro-remain and Labour Pro-leave, but the fear of UKIP pushed the Tories to the right and the legacy of Blair was to leave Labour towards the centre. There is also the rise of English Nationalism which played a factor, a legacy of the failure of devolution to find a means for England to have its own parliament. Fintan 0'Toole explains it brilliantly in his book the politics and pain of brexit.

The left of the Labour party always had a tradition of eurosceptism based around Benn, Shore and Foot, the centrists such as Owen, Williams were pro -EU and left to form the SDP, showed their colours didnt they, Blair returned the party to the ground occupied by those who left to form the SDP and marginalised the left wing just as Starmer is doing. Whats the saying, failure is doing something over and over again and getting the same result or something. Why on earth vote for a labour party that is pro-EU as its against its very core beliefs, the Labour party and capitalism doesn't fit, although Starmer is trying to find the glass slipper that does. Plitics of Cinderella against politics of Porky the pig is what we have in the UK right now.

Literally sub 1% of the population want to leave the EU because it is too capitalist.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

"Failure is to do something over and over again and expect the same results."

Well the result last time was being elected so I guess that's a funny definition of failure.

 

[mat]

What was far left about the last Labour manifesto?

Giving a fuck about your fellow human beings seems far left to some posters on this thread.

 

[Vic]

Momentum ffs is a tiny part of the overall membership. Around 40,000 out of 550,000

There influence is hugely overegged

You said Labour should have been the party of Leave. I was pointing out that not even his party within a party wanted that.

And if you think momentum influence was overegged you either never attended a CLP meeting to see their block vote in action or know how they got in so many paid positions in the party structure.

 

[Vic]

This thinking cost Labour an election victory and caused the huge split in the party.

No Socialist party can possibly back an institution that is based on capitalism, protectionism and corporatism. The paradox is the parties somehow managed to get it the wrong way round, the Tories should have been pro-remain and Labour Pro-leave, but the fear of UKIP pushed the Tories to the right and the legacy of Blair was to leave Labour towards the centre. There is also the rise of English Nationalism which played a factor, a legacy of the failure of devolution to find a means for England to have its own parliament. Fintan 0'Toole explains it brilliantly in his book the politics and pain of brexit.

The left of the Labour party always had a tradition of eurosceptism based around Benn, Shore and Foot, the centrists such as Owen, Williams were pro -EU and left to form the SDP, showed their colours didnt they, Blair returned the party to the ground occupied by those who left to form the SDP and marginalised the left wing just as Starmer is doing. Whats the saying, failure is doing something over and over again and getting the same result or something. Why on earth vote for a labour party that is pro-EU as its against its very core beliefs, the Labour party and capitalism doesn't fit, although Starmer is trying to find the glass slipper that does. Plitics of Cinderella against politics of Porky the pig is what we have in the UK right now.

Good luck with all that on the doorstep.

Brexit will ruin the economy but as it's a capitalist economy we think that's only right, and Michael Foot agrees.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

What was far left about the last Labour manifesto?

Without going through the mither of their manifesto, let's just agree that my and
your viewpoints are obviously miles apart. Why do you think Labour lost, and lost badly?
By painting Britain as a country with millions in poverty, with cruel governance, jobs that
are mostly minimum wage, the majority struggling badly, they simply did not reflect reality.
There is, now, no real definition of 'Working class,' simply workers, who in the main, are far
away from the above scenario, these folk rejected Labour in droves.
Other factors contributed, but there are no massive factories in Northern Towns, with
thousands emptying out, all union members, those days are gone, tradesmen, and I know plenty,
are doing very well, they voted Tory, getting them back will be difficult.

 

[Rascal]

Without going through the mither of their manifesto, let's just agree that my and
your viewpoints are obviously miles apart. Why do you think Labour lost, and lost badly?
By painting Britain as a country with millions in poverty, with cruel governance, jobs that
are mostly minimum wage, the majority struggling badly, they simply did not reflect reality.
There is, now, no real definition of 'Working class,' simply workers, who in the main, are far
away from the above scenario, these folk rejected Labour in droves.
Other factors contributed, but there are no massive factories in Northern Towns, with
thousands emptying out, all union members, those days are gone, tradesmen, and I know plenty,
are doing very well, they voted Tory, getting them back will be difficult.

So the manifesto wasn't hard left, it was a throw away remark you read in the Daily Express.

Labour lost badly because of BREXIT, it failed to support it, when it should have done and that left the working class at odds with the party. It made Labour look the party of the liberal metro elite and the red wall fucked them off as a result.

Britain has got huge problems with poverty, parts of Manchester are amongst the poorest areas in Europe, we have more foodbanks than Mcdonalds, the austerity years were cruel on those with least, the minimum wage is a joke, the NHS is crumbling and lacks funding, the schools are a disgrace, UK students pay some of the highest fees in the world, we have massive problems with homelessness, their is a crisis in mental health services, zero hour jobs are a piss take, the manufacturing industry has been destroyed, the Banks have took the piss, the roads are full of potholes, the railways are third world, town centres are dying, yes some are doing well and good luck to them but many are not and those who are not doing well are doing even worse under this miserable fucking excuse for a Govt, but the very tradesman who are doing well complained about immigrants taking their jobs so who are they doing well?

Politics in this country is always about class, everything that is done is about class, Blair claimed we are all middle class now, the fucking clown pandering to the Thatcherite myth of a meritocracy, a meritocracy that does not exist because Capitalism does not allow for a meritocracy so the Capitalists use their influence to paint anything that threatens their hegemony as hard left because they hate parting with their money, they are only patriotic towards their bank balance and yachts in the Cayman Islands not to the country or its millions of hard working decent folk struggling to get by from day to day with no savings and relying on foodbanks to feed their kids.

And what we have now is a Labour party in thrall to the capitalists because they have backed Starmer and he is no threat to their hegemony because he needs their money to become PM.