I think rascal meant historically leave (not join) was a left wing position? If you look on youtube you can find hours of (excellent) debate on joining the common market and it was very much the tory govt that wanted in. There was always a bit of a divide over the issue that plagued the tories and became worse as the EEC morphed into the EU. The referendum was Cameron attempting to put this division to bed but it didn't go as planned.Absolute and utter fucking bullshit.
You’re either making it up as you go along or just regurgitating nonsense you’ve seen George Galloway tweet.
65 % of Labour voters voted Remain
35% Leave
39% Tories voted Remain
61% Leave
You can’t just make things up to suit your deluded narrative.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted
There’s absolutely nothing in Rascal’s post to suggest he was talking about the 1970s?I think rascal meant historically leave (not join) was a left wing position? If you look on youtube you can find hours of (excellent) debate on joining the common market and it was very much the tory govt that wanted in. There was always a bit of a divide over the issue that plagued the tories and became worse as the EEC morphed into the EU. The referendum was Cameron attempting to put this division to bed but it didn't go as planned.
There’s absolutely nothing in Rascal’s post to suggest he was talking about the 1970s?
He specifically mentions “Leave” being a left-wing cause, specifically relating to the recent referendum.
It’s absolute bollocks he’s talking, the ramblings of a brainwashed cult member trying to re-write history.
Leave was very much a left wing cause, highjacked by the far right for nefarious reasons
I think before you call rascal a brainwashed cult member trying to rewrite history, it might be worth considering a potential weakness in your own argument based on the stats you posted - the large labour voting leave contingent effectively defected to the Tories in the last GE. This is why some previously safe labour seats turned blue. These are labour people that felt so strongly about leave ( or anti corbyn if you want to believe that) that they held their noses and voted tory for the first time in their lives.There’s absolutely nothing in Rascal’s post to suggest he was talking about the 1970s?
He specifically mentions “Leave” being a left-wing cause, specifically relating to the recent referendum.
It’s absolute bollocks he’s talking, the ramblings of a brainwashed cult member trying to re-write history.
Those statistics are from way before the recent general election.I think before you call rascal a brainwashed cult member trying to rewrite history, it might be worth considering a potential weakness in your own argument based on the stats you posted - the large labour voting leave contingent effectively defected to the Tories in the last GE. This is why some previously safe labour seats turned blue. These are labour people that felt so strongly about leave ( or anti corbyn if you want to believe that) that they held their noses and voted tory for the first time in their lives.
No, I am suggesting leaving the EU was an outcry against the neo-liberalism of the EU that resulted in people being left behind, only Socialism can redress that balance. That they voted leave should have been a huge wake up call up to the likes of Starmer and all the other pro-EU Blairites, its OK, it works for them, it does not work for Labours traditional northern heartlands. Leave was very much a left wing cause, highjacked by the far right for nefarious reasons and used to stoke up fears against the EU without providing the answers, Labour needs to find the answers, but it wont under Starmer because he is Pro EU and the party has been hijacked by the FBFE lunatic fringe.
You are (almost) entirely wrong, but I feel we are getting in the way of the thread now. There's a brexit thread where you can cheerfully assume it is only me and not yourself relying on semantics. It's the failure by people such as yourself to understand that there was more to leave than immigration that led to it winning the day.Those statistics are from way before the recent general election.
Labour voters overwhelmingly backed Remain. It’s just a matter of fact.
It’s useless trying to dress it up any other way or relying on semantics to try to back up your own viewpoint.
A small amount of far-left ideologues (Corbyn included) wanted Leave for economic reasons.
Leave didn’t win on an economic argument, I don’t even think the cultists are deluded enough to believe that. Leave won on the issue of immigration.
The far-right managed to convince the left behind that immigrants were causing their problems. A diabolical tactic that unfortunately worked.
Until we dismantle this broad acceptance of capitalism and create a new narrative then Labour will never be in power. Capitalism is failing, but even now even many on the right of the Labour party cling to it as it is some sort of magic bullet. It is isn't it needs new ways of thinking and under Corbyn Labour started to address that. As long though as capitalism and the market are seen as the only way then the Labour party may as well not exist.
The definition of true Socialist, depends on how you view Socialism. There is not a single strand of must do and musnt do to be one, but the overarching belief has to be that society is organised in a way that benefits the majority not the minority who are the owners of capital. If that means the workers controlling the means of production, then so be it, if that means a National Health service then good, if that means a Nationalised transport system all the better. Even Lenin appreciated that their is room for some capitalism on a small scale as in small businesses, corner shops etc, but how the fuck does the owners of Capital like Branson expect his losses to be socialised, whilst his profits are privatised. That does not benefit the man on the street, it doesn't benefit the nation at large, because Capitalism benefits individuals not society.
We had the banking crash, but socialised the debt, we have private rail but socialise the losses, we have universal healthcare but the owners of capital sniff profit and if it goes wrong they will expect the losses to be socialised. What we currently have is Socialism for the owners of capital and the populace meekly accept the status quo and doff their caps to them. And even now, the right of the Labour party accept that because they want power. Power without principle is worthless in my opinion, you have the chance to change the world and instead just pander to those who already have it all.
Call centres, all they resemble are the mills of the 18th century, workers exploited by greedy bosses, why accept that? What is wrong with expecting a fair days pay for a fair days work, not a zero hour contract where you are a slave to the whims of the owner. Unionise, demand better pay, better conditions like the mill workers did. You don't have to go in and control them, you have to give them the opportunity to control their own lives not be at the beck and the call of the owners of capital.
Its hard though, since Thatcher and Reagan we have had getting on 50 years of neo-liberalism, we have seen the breakdown of the post WW2 social consensus and the right wing think tanks and media have skewed debate in their favour until now its meekly accepted that its the only way. Its not the only way, but we need leaders with vision to create a new way of thinking , a new narrative for the UK where everyone has a chance in life, everyone has a home, we have good jobs, people pay fair taxes and those with most pay there share. We need a society where we are judged on how well we treat those with the least not on how well we treat those with the most, we have one chance at this life and under the current system most of us will fail because the few will be the winners. That must be Labours mission and under Starmer I just do not see that happening because he is not one of us
.
Leaving the EU has not been a left wing issue in the minds of the general public for the last 30 years. In fact, it has been the opposite.
Whilst the circumstances that led people to be angry may well be caused by the uncaring neo liberalism you cite, the people acting/voting on it don't make that connection. They have shifted in the opposite direction.
Moving the public conscience takes a look time and is gradual. There is little chance that a public who votes for ten years of a callous, austerity driven Tory government will suddenly pivot to a hard left position led by politicians with an image problem/out dated image.
It just doesn't work like that and to make that your target and to oppose those who do have a chance of enacting some gradual chance in government is to shun the long game because you can't get what you want immediately.
Johnson and Cummings could not have been elected in the post war consensus. It took decades of Tories and the media gradually shifting the public's acceptance of a right wing culture. It would take decades to shift it back.