Keir Starmer

[mcfc1632]

When Osborne was chancellor he paid off the final debt we owed from WW1

The notion that a country can go bankrupt is weird, since we are no longer in the EU we are not constrained by their rules and we have our own currency. We can print as much money as we like, we can borrow as much money as is needed because we dont pay it back next week, we pay it back next century and the nations assets far outweigh its liabilities so there is no reason at all it cannot be done. The Tories will be against it though on ideological grounds as they are wedded to low taxation and by raising taxation we could easily afford all the measures needed.

At the moment welfare payments are at the lowest level ever against the average wage, that could be adressed by introducing UBI, which would fuel the economy. Those with least have the highest propensity to spend and the best way out of debt is not austerity it is growth. The Tories though are wedded to neo-liberalism and its supply side measures where as we need a good dose of Keynesian demand side economics to boost the economy.

Are you suggesting Brexit benefits and reasons to be free of EU regulations??

Sorry - off-topic;-)

 

[joe123]

Pardon my ignorance but would all non life threatening operations be cancelled?

I've no idea tbh, but I guess one of the points of it would be a reduction in people taking up hospital beds with Covid giving the NHS a bit of breathing room in dealing with everything else.

 

[Gareth Barry Conlon]

The notion that a country can go bankrupt is weird, since we are no longer in the EU we are not constrained by their rules and we have our own currency. We can print as much money as we like, we can borrow as much money as is needed because we dont pay it back next week, we pay it back next century and the nations assets far outweigh its liabilities so there is no reason at all it cannot be done. The Tories will be against it though on ideological grounds as they are wedded to low taxation and by raising taxation we could easily afford all the measures needed.

This is a classic misconception often spouted in hard left circles.

Technically you can print money to pay of your debts but the reality is that in doing so you devalue you currency by the same amount. This ultimately leads to a self fullfilling cycle known as hyperinflation and a total collapse of a currency.

Zimbabwe is the best example of this:

Zimbabwe's peak month of inflation is estimated at 79.6 billion percent month-on-month ~ In April 2009, Zimbabwe stopped printing its currency, with currencies from other countries being used

Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ganganvince]

I've no idea tbh, but I guess one of the points of it would be a reduction in people taking up hospital beds with Covid giving the NHS a bit of breathing room in dealing with everything else.

So what we are asking for is for someone who is virtually blind and been waiting for a cateract operation in somewhere like the Isle of White were infections are low is to have their operation cancelled? As an example.

 

[joe123]

So what we are asking for is for someone who is virtually blind and been waiting for a cateract operation in somewhere like the Isle of White were infections are low is to have their operation cancelled? As an example.

Like I say, I don't know what the protocols will be for hospital appointments, but I do know the point of putting in a circuit breaker whilst cases are in the ascendancy is to avoid a peak that would see hospitals overwhelmed and unable to deal with anything else. If it eases the Covid burden on hospitals, a circuit break would make it more likely you can get your cataracts out sooner.

 

[ganganvince]

Like I say, I don't know what the protocols will be for hospital appointments, but I do know the point of putting in a circuit breaker whilst cases are in the ascendancy is to avoid a peak that would see hospitals overwhelmed and unable to deal with anything else. If it eases the Covid burden on hospitals, a circuit break would make it more likely you can get your cataracts out sooner.

Isn't that the same as local measures but just in areas of high infection?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

So what we are asking for is for someone who is virtually blind and been waiting for a cateract operation in somewhere like the Isle of White were infections are low is to have their operation cancelled? As an example.

I can’t speak nationwide, but in Oldham, Oldham Royal was paired with Rochdale infirmary. Oldham took all the Covid patients and Rochdale continued with minor ops. My grandma had her cataracts done earlier in the year.

 

[Rascal]

This is a classic misconception often spouted in hard left circles.

Technically you can print money to pay of your debts but the reality is that in doing so you devalue you currency by the same amount. This ultimately leads to a self fullfilling cycle known as hyperinflation and a total collapse of a currency.

Zimbabwe is the best example of this:

Hyperinflation in Zimbabwe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I also noted that the UK has significant assets, Zimbabwe not so much. So borrowing money is fine. I also wouldn't borrow to pay off debts, i would borrow to invest as growth will make it easier to pay off debt in the long term.

Money as Harari says is a matter of trust. Do you trust that the money in your hand is actually worth what it says because money itself is worthless as a commodity. If you trust the £10 note will but you 2 pints of beer then money is working. Its a means of common exchange that relies on promise. As bank notes say i promise to pay the bearer.

You can print money if the trust remains in the currency, admitedly it can be a precarious balance because once the £10 note no longer buys you 2 pints, you can lose trust in its value.

QE was trusted and proved effective, it was in effect creating new money, every bank can create new money. It is how the money is used that is the crux. If like in Zimbabwes case it was spent on war, then yes i can see why it lead to hyperinfaltion because the currency lost trust. If the new money was used to invest then the multiplier effect would create growth and negate the chance of hyperinflation and trust in the currency would remain solid. At the moment interest rates are low so its the perfect time to borrow and invest. Other countries across Europe are doing just that, like Italy with its digital highways plan(dont understand what that means btw, but it sounds good)

 

[mat]

Slow handclap for Sir Keith for whipping MPs to abstain from voting against a fascist bill.

Huge applause for the 34 labour MPs who told him to get fucked. A man who says he's passionate about human rights has proved he really doesn't give a shit if I'm legally murdered for standing up against the state.

 

[Rascal]

Slow handclap for Sir Keith for whipping MPs to abstain from voting against a fascist bill.

Huge applause for the 34 labour MPs who told him to get fucked. A man who says he's passionate about him rights has proved he really doesn't give a shit if I'm legally murdered for standing up against the state.

8 have now resigned from the front bench team.

Respect to

Dan Carden
Nav Mishra
Kim Hopkins
Margaret Greenwood
Rachel Hopkins
Sarah Owen
Mary Foy
Kim Johnson

Its time for them to now revolt and get rid of Keith. A labour leader not opposing this Bill is a disgrace to the party.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

what's this about?

 

[ganganvince]

what's this about?

Starmer humiliated as 34 Labour MPs ignore Keir's orders on vote

SIR KEIR STARMER has been hit by a major rebellion after 34 Labour MPs - including seven frontbenchers - defied the party whip in an important Commons vote.

www.express.co.uk

 

[joe123]

Can someone explain the rationale of abstaining?

 

[BlueHammer85]

Can’t wait for ‘Keith’ to see off Boris and the Tory’s In the next election, the gobby momentum Labour lot can piss off with them aswell.

Starmer is looking strong for a Labour Goverment to finally take control.

 

[Rascal]

Can’t wait for ‘Keith’ to see off Boris and the Tory’s In the next election, the gobby momentum Labour lot can piss off with them aswell.

Starmer is looking strong for a Labour Goverment to finally take control.

For the 500th time, momentum have little influence, they are a grass roots campaign group modelled on the one that got Bernie Sanders support. They do try and influence who gets on the NEC but their influence is hugely overegged

Starmer will not get a strong Labour Govt, he is a natural centrist and if Labour want to win they have to have all parts of the movement on board, which Keith doesn't appear to want. It must be frustrating for him, but he hasn't helped himself. Andy Burnham looks more a leader of the opposition than Starmer does because he is actually opposing. Whipping the parties to abstain on that bill is nothing short of a disgrace for a Labour leader. The bill was something you might see in a country controlled by fascists.

Labour love a good fight though, usually with ourselves, but that's a good thing as it shows the party has intellectual rigour. From the battle of ideas one would hope comes a serious policy platform, but if the left are excluded from the debate then the debate is immaterial, its skewed towards the centrists and is a reaffirmation of Blairism.

 

[Rascal]

Can someone explain the rationale of abstaining?

I wish I could. Opposition for oppositions sake is not always the correct course, but this Bill threatens our human rights and if Labour are not for human rights then what is the point of Labour at all. The party has always thought for rights and to allow them to be diminished without a peep is shocking.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

Can someone explain the rationale of abstaining?

Bills are complex and have many elements. I dont know about this one but usually abstention occurs to prevent misrepresentation later and only if opposition is futile. For example, if City vote against the Big Picture proposal we could later be accused of failing to support a rescue package for failing clubs when in reality we were opposing the power grab. It is a tactical move and about choosing your battles. The trouble is individual mps can feel differently hence the need for Whips. If you dont like the idea of whips then become an independent. Simple.

 

[urban genie]

Can someone explain the rationale of abstaining?

This along with the same tactic during the overseas war crime bill is a much easier way to rid his front bench of any remaining left leaning MPs appointed originally to cause no friction in his early reign.
Forcing abstenations on clearlly morally wrong bills, but also ones that will be forgotten in the public eye with the present situation is easier for
changes and to bring in blue labour appointments.

There is clearly a plan to remove any non centrist/neo-liberal element as could be said for Dodds future who has consistently had her role undermined as more right-wing members of the Shadow Cabinet have been given public platforms to announce/confirm economic policiesand who is being very clearly briefed against in the press by a number of 'anonymous sources' in the Shadow Cabinet with no repercussions

He originally wanted that right winger Reeves as chancelor to much opposition in the party, but I would not be suprised to see her in that role before 2024.

 

[Rascal]

This along with the same tactic during the overseas war crime bill is a much easier way to rid his front bench of any remaining left leaning MPs appointed originally to cause no friction in his early reign.
Forcing abstenations on clearlly morally wrong bills, but also ones that will be forgotten in the public eye with the present situation is easier for
changes and to bring in blue labour appointments.

There is clearly a plan to remove any non centrist/neo-liberal element as could be said for Dodds future who has consistently had her role undermined as more right-wing members of the Shadow Cabinet have been given public platforms to announce/confirm economic policiesand who is being very clearly briefed against in the press by a number of 'anonymous sources' in the Shadow Cabinet with no repercussions

He originally wanted that right winger Reeves as chancelor to much opposition in the party, but I would not be suprised to see her in that role before 2024.

Reeves sends shivers down my spine.

 

[BlueMoonRisin’]

I wish I could. Opposition for oppositions sake is not always the correct course, but this Bill threatens our human rights and if Labour are not for human rights then what is the point of Labour at all. The party has always thought for rights and to allow them to be diminished without a peep is shocking.

I don't read the political threads much and post very rarely Rascal, but you know what pal, my old fella would be up in arms on how labour has changed beyond recognition since he passed away in 2004. He was works convenor of TGWU at Oldham Batteries in Denton until about 1990. He gained the trust and respect of 2000 men and women in it's heyday, both blue and white collar workers. He told the truth and was a fair man. He said it how he saw it and he'd sometimes say - "They don't know their arse front their bloody elbows". He'd be sick of saying that nowadays!

Human rights? Pah. Those droid dummies need to become human themselves first. Until they do, no politician of any party gets my vote. A collective bunch of liars and charlatans, sadly.