Keir Starmer

[Tb1981]

How could Labour back Brexit, proving to be a disaster, when most Labour voters were against Brexit?

I can't be bothered checking the individual stats for Hartlepool, but I suspect that might have been true even in Hartlepool.

See what happens elsewhere, but I don't know what you do with people who blame Labout for the way Redcar now looks.

Most labour voters are against brexit? this is in part due to so many now not voting labour anymore
Labour is finished.
No idea what they stand for other than opposition to everything.
When your so good at opposition then people think you may as well stay there

 

[meltonblue]

Correct and that is why Cameron thought we would all vote to remain in the EU. He was sat in the middle of London where billions of pounds have been spent on improvements whilst the rest of us were deriving no perceivable benefits at all of being in the EU. Time will tell if we were right to leave but so far so good, especially where Covid vaccinations are concerned.

Seen that said a few times. Just to be very clear, leaving the EU has nothing to do with the vaccine success. Everything we’ve done could have happened before brexit.

That’s a prime example where Johnson’s been allowed to set a false narrative in parliament by wrongly linking it to leaving the EMA, he’s not been properly pulled up on it to correct the record, and then that narrative has caught on with a large swathe of the electorate.

I’m not sure how any political party can combat it at the mo, as we’ve effectively turned the debate into a fiction. It’s who can sucker people into believing the bigger lies and screw the reality.

 

[GaudinoMotors]

Lol at that analysis. "Denial" springs to mind.

 

[Gabriel]

The Liberal Democrats polled 358 votes and the Monster Raving Looney Party 108 votes. Hartlepool formed part of a Liberal seat in 1922. Our time will come...

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

Seen that said a few times. Just to be very clear, leaving the EU has nothing to do with the vaccine success. Everything we’ve done could have happened before brexit.

That’s a prime example where Johnson’s been allowed to set a false narrative in parliament by wrongly linking it to leaving the EMA, he’s not been properly pulled up on it to correct the record, and then that narrative has caught on with a large swathe of the electorate.

I’m not sure how any political party can combat it at the mo, as we’ve effectively turned the debate into a fiction. It’s who can sucker people into believing the bigger lies and screw the reality.

I think a lot of people just associate anything European-related as not applicable now after Brexit and didn't know about our complicated membership prior. I don't reckon they know about Johnson's mutterings in parliament.

 

[meltonblue]

I think a lot of people just associate anything European-related as not applicable now after Brexit and didn't know about our complicated membership prior. I don't reckon they know about Johnson's mutterings in parliament.

I agree. It’s a very tricky narrative to combat, particularly given how deep rooted it already is.

 

[Tb1981]

Dont think we will ever know whether brexit will be better or worse for the economy now, as the financial fall out from Covid has dwarfed everything. Starmer backing remain and being a knighted london based champagne socialist will always count againt him in some sections of the northern labour vote.

That and he spends his time going on about sleaze and wallpaper.
maybe be if he spent his time And questions explaining how he will improve the lives of northerners he may look like he has a plan.
Labour will never win as a hard left party and the members won’t let them get back to the middle
They haven’t won a general election for four decades without tony Blair (who they now call a Tory)
They have relied on the northern working class vote and taken it for granted. Now they have lost it they have no idea how to win it back.
Long way back from here

 

[mat]

The difference is there to see.

Blarites holding firm with Keir. Fucking embarrassing. Wouldn't surprise me if Johnson's went for a full GE in late summer after this.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

You rarely see the Conservative voters on the political threads these days because they have no need to defend the indefensible anymore safe in the knowledge they will remain in power.
Sad state of affairs but says a lot about the mindset of much of the country.

Correct, you don't see Conservative voters as this forum is massively left wing.
There's nothing wrong with that, it is what it is, but when arguments countering this narrative get posted, many get deleted, so there comes a point when nobody bothers. Defending the indefensible is just using statements to support a point of view, it's not factual, the actions of the govt are not indefensible, if they were, a place like Hartlepool, long a labour stronghold, would never turn Tory, especially about 16 months into
a term.
On here it's still. 'I don't know how they can't see they're bad,' 'How can working class people do this,' ''Why are they voting Tory?'
If the answers to these questions haven't smacked anyone in the face by now, they never will.

 

[inbetween]

I don't know what Labour can do, the majority of the time their political stance is far more in line with protecting your average person/everybody but they have to take so many stances in a fast changing world that eventually they'll be behind a stance that somebody doesn't agree with.

People are genuinely having a go at them for taking a knee against racism but will happily go and support their football teams with players making the same morale stance.

The Tory party on the other hand are anti-change (although they claim they're for change) unless it benefits them, they would like all the issues we have to stay the same because it benefits them. They get far more leeway in the media for it too, which masks their errors far more easily. 'Oh you've been robbing us for hundreds of millions, doesn't matter because you didn't take the knee'.

Baffles me that anyone could put an X in the Tory box after what they've done this year.

The problem Labour and Labour supporters have is they are living only in the present and are missing what has happened over the last 10 years on some huge questions concerning the EU and immigration. The usual mantra of shooting people down for having these concerns as racists or xenophobes is not working.

As you've said, saying it baffles you about someone putting an X in the Tory box misses the point that you likely didn't support Brexit and so don't care about it, but a massive number do and Labour did not and still do not have their backs. Why would the people of Hartlepool vote for the Tories considering they never have before? They haven't become stupid overnight, what they do have is a frustration with Labour because it doesn't speak for them.

The Tories are not a far-right party or even a centre-right party, they are a populist party. Brexit has been the biggest populist question for a century and Labour have been on the wrong side of the electorate on it for over a decade. It says it all that in 2019 the Tories didn't even really need a manifesto to win.

2015 - Miliband opposed a referendum, Cameron gave people one - Tory majority
2017 - May said deal, Corbyn said deal - hung parliament
2019 - Boris said no deal, Corbyn said deal closer to the EU or another referendum - Tory majority

I don't think that any of this is a rejection of Corbyn or the Corbyn hangover with Starmer as so many claim. It is however a rejection of the current radical 'woke', pro-immigration and pro-Europe elements within Labour that are pulling the strings on policy and in campaigning. They shouldn't be looking at why people rejected stalwarts like John Mcdonnell (who accepted the referendum) but rather why they rejected someone like Emily Thornberry (who didn't).