Keir Starmer

I'll bypass the deflections, and concentrate on the event, so why have a debate about Palestine? The UK populace has virtually no great interest in the topic, yet Labour decide to hand out flags at their conference, and give time for it. You may not agree, but Corbyn and his ilk, the principle drivers of this obsession, were responsible for the election hammering.

That conference debate will have been put forward and appproved for discussion, it is what a democratic party does, allows debate on a range of subjects, if people there wish to attend it that is their choice, hundreds wouldn't have as they would not have been interested in it and probably went to other debates, it is nowt new or unusual to debate different things, and on this subject niether care, Israel/palestine is not something I put on my list of campaigns that are a priority to me.


You seem more focussed on the palestinian issue than any labour memeber I know btw, I rarely if ever have discussions about it bar on here with my comrades.


Also has fuck all to do with starmer, which some of us keep trying to steer his thread back onto not obsessing about corbyn and 2-3 years ago
 
Also has fuck all to do with starmer, which some of us keep trying to steer his thread back onto not obsessing about corbyn and 2-3 years ago
Fair enough, I think Starmer will ditch this Palestine business anyway, he's
trying, at least, to broaden support, and is doing it at the expense of the left,
it appears. Problem is, the left of the party don't like it, so he's got one helluva job.
 
I am telling you what you don't want to hear I'm afraid, I'm not disputing the legitimacy of Chavez's election, I'm telling you the upshot of it. The Americans were not responsible for some ruler going around the country seizing private property and installing party/crony supervision. This was done on a large scale, including farms, so just like Zimbabwe, it descended into poverty, crime and misery, as nobody can run successful businesses by ousting the owners, it's an ideological fallacy, and each and every attempt
brings the same results.
But that doesn't answer the question does it.

The CIA interfered with Venezuela , the Daily Mail said so, so all the above is mute because of that interference. So the claim that Labour doesn't criticise them is a strange one. Why would the Labour party criticise a country that has been destabilised by the CIA and American sanctions.

What Chavez did is common knowledge, he abused power, he aint the first or the last to do that, but you criticise Labour for saying nothing, when it says loads about other regimes that the Tory party ignore.
 
That conference debate will have been put forward and appproved for discussion, it is what a democratic party does, allows debate on a range of subjects, if people there wish to attend it that is their choice, hundreds wouldn't have as they would not have been interested in it and probably went to other debates, it is nowt new or unusual to debate different things, and on this subject niether care, Israel/palestine is not something I put on my list of campaigns that are a priority to me.


You seem more focussed on the palestinian issue than any labour memeber I know btw, I rarely if ever have discussions about it bar on here with my comrades.


Also has fuck all to do with starmer, which some of us keep trying to steer his thread back onto not obsessing about corbyn and 2-3 years ago
Exactly, Palestine ain't an issue i get involved with nor is it an issue i have discussed with anybody outside of this forum. If people want to debate it at conference it is up to them. I would rather other things were debated but accept the democratic decision of the members to debate what they want. If they want to spend a day debating which is the best cheese Lidl sell, then it is their decision.

The Palestine issue is just a stick to beat the Labour party with, that you tube clip AC put is a case in point, it told a story that bares little semblance to the truth
 
Fair enough, I think Starmer will ditch this Palestine business anyway, he's
trying, at least, to broaden support, and is doing it at the expense of the left,
it appears. Problem is, the left of the party don't like it, so he's got one helluva job.
It is not up to Starmer, the party is democratic. If the membership decide they want to debate it then they will if there is time and the motion is accepted.

The Labour party is not the personal fiefdom of Starmer to do as he wishes, although he wishes it was.
 
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Fair enough, I think Starmer will ditch this Palestine business anyway, he's
trying, at least, to broaden support, and is doing it at the expense of the left,
it appears. Problem is, the left of the party don't like it, so he's got one helluva job.

He has allienated many of his own CLPs and groups within the party that are niether left wing or still hankering for corbyn.

42 CLP chairs have been suspended for following party rules on local debates, because his new Chairman has sent undemocratic edicts denying certain subject to be brought up.


For the past 3 years all we heard was the PLP amd labour right wafffle about deselections, which never happened and if they did they were through votes by members, yet Starmer has begun an undemocratic purge, yet this Stalinist style set of actions is ignored by those who moaned about the left for the last few yeers.

Also add the fact some ethnic minority groups and left wing jews have come out saying they don't feel welcome in the party anymore, it seems he is as selective on his ignorance of racism and bigotry in some parts of the party as Corbyn was to suit his ideology
 
But that doesn't answer the question does it.

The CIA interfered with Venezuela , the Daily Mail said so, so all the above is mute because of that interference. So the claim that Labour doesn't criticise them is a strange one. Why would the Labour party criticise a country that has been destabilised by the CIA and American sanctions.

What Chavez did is common knowledge, he abused power, he aint the first or the last to do that, but you criticise Labour for saying nothing, when it says loads about other regimes that the Tory party ignore.
No point made is 'Moot' you're simply ignoring the results of socialism, which have SFA to do with the CIA, or America, I'm afraid, the Yanks were not credited with Venezuela being successful prior to it were they?
You say he abused power, but contradict that by saying he was democratically elected, which he was, he then started on the expropriations, again a socialist policy, again perfectly within his remit, so where's the abuse?
The results of those policies are clear to see, but to refer to the original point about Labour criticism, Corbyn swerved every discussion of it, after
singing Chavez' praises, surprise, surprise.
But Corbyn is no more and Starmer is in the seat, and I believe he'll change this mindset, to the chagrin of the left, and he's getting pelters from there, so not an easy job.
 
No point made is 'Moot' you're simply ignoring the results of socialism, which have SFA to do with the CIA, or America, I'm afraid, the Yanks were not credited with Venezuela being successful prior to it were they?
You say he abused power, but contradict that by saying he was democratically elected, which he was, he then started on the expropriations, again a socialist policy, again perfectly within his remit, so where's the abuse?
The results of those policies are clear to see, but to refer to the original point about Labour criticism, Corbyn swerved every discussion of it, after
singing Chavez' praises, surprise, surprise.
But Corbyn is no more and Starmer is in the seat, and I believe he'll change this mindset, to the chagrin of the left, and he's getting pelters from there, so not an easy job.
Getting back on topic

Starmer won't last next year. He is useless

As for Chavez

1. Hugo Chávez was democratically elected. Not once. Not twice. But five times over the course of fourteen years.

2. Chávez won these elections by massive margins. He prevailed in the 1998 presidential election with 56% of the vote. He was reelected in 2000, netting 60% of votes cast. In 2004, Chávez won a recall referendum with 59%. In 2006 he was again victorious, receiving a whopping 63% of the vote. And in the 2012, while dying of cancer, he still triumphed, this time garnering 55%.


3. On the rare occasions when Chávez suffered a political defeat (e.g., the December 2007 referendum on constitutional changes), he accepted the loss immediately. It’s true that Chávez engaged in certain practices that are open to criticism, such as gerrymandering and using executive decrees to get around congressional opposition. But these practices are common in many actually-existing democracies, including the US, and hardly constitute evidence that Chávez was a dictator.

4. Chávez’s electoral success was not due to electoral fraud. The Venezuelan opposition (which supported a military coup against Chávez in 2002) and US mainstream media frequently level this charge, but there is no credible to support it. Jimmy Carter said, “Of the 92 elections that we’ve monitored [at the Carter Center], I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world.”

5. The reason Chávez was so successful politically is because he implemented some of the same sorts of policies Socialists support. After Chávez took office, the Venezuelan state more than spending on health and education. (Sure this was made possible by the high price of oil from 2003 to 2008, but it was also possible because of Chávez’s success in reasserting state control over the oil sector, which was quasi-privatized in the 1990s.)

6. The policies implemented under Chávez led to vast improvements in access to health care, education, housing, and pensions. Poverty in Venezuela was cut in half between 2003 and 2008, with extreme poverty falling by 72%.

7. Chávez also made progress on the issue a lot of Socialists care the most about: inequality. By 2012 Venezuela was the most equitable in Latin America.

8. While you haven’t declared that you want to build “twenty-first century socialism,” Chávez’s Bolivarian Revolution bears at least some resemblance to the type of “political revolution” you claim to favor. In 1998, when Chávez was first elected, turnout was just 63%, one of the lowest percentages in Venezuela’s democratic history. In Chávez’s last election, it was 81% — the highest percentage since 1988, when voting in Venezuela was still mandatory. In December 2013, 59% of registered voters went to the ballot box for local elections — a higher turnout than every US presidential election since 1968.

There was also a significant in Venezuelans’ interest in politics during Chávez’s time in office. In the three years before Chávez took office, Venezuelans’ interest in politics was consistently below the Latin American average (by 7–8% each year). Since 2003, Venezuelans’ interest in politics has been consistently above the Latin American average. In 2013, the year Chávez died, the percentage of Venezuelans who expressed interest in politics (47%) was the highest in Latin America and far higher than the Latin American average (28%).

9. Under Chávez, Venezuela made significant, if contradictory, progress towards the goal of becoming a “participatory democracy.” This was done through the establishment of numerous types of participatory institutions: communal councils, health and water committees, communes, participatory budgeting, and more. These institutions are not perfect, but they have undoubtedly fosstered greater decision-making power for ordinary Venezuelans.

10. The left were and are active participants in a messy and imperfect but inspiring and profoundly important attempt to forge a radical transformation. Chávez engaged millions of people in a democratic process of far-reaching reform. Chavez's championing of the poor came at the expense of Venezuela's middle class, which he branded as "esqualidos", the weak ones.


The RW hated what Chavez did, they disrespected his achievements because he threatened the neo-liberal consensus, yes he went to far by nominating new members of the supreme court (oh Trump did that)

So why on earth would any leftist criticise his achievements?

If you can be bothered read a RW piece about Chavez and you will see the same tropes aimed at Corbyn. Antisemitism being one of them, you will obviously hear him be called the M word.....shock horror, not the M word.

BTW i cant find any evidence of Starmer criticising Chavez, perhaps he does a Socialist bone in his body or is that stupid he doesnt know where Venezuela is.


US-Led Economic War, Not Socialism, Is Tearing Venezuela Apart (mintpressnews.com) here read this.
 
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Unless I missed it there was no substance or alternatives other than the Firebreak in October in the press conference
 
Getting back on topic

Starmer won't last next year. He is useless

As for Chavez

1. Hugo Chávez was democratically elected. Not once. Not twice. But five times over the course of fourteen years.

2. Chávez won these elections by massive margins. He prevailed in the 1998 presidential election with 56% of the vote. He was reelected in 2000, netting 60% of votes cast. In 2004, Chávez won a recall referendum with 59%. In 2006 he was again victorious, receiving a whopping 63% of the vote. And in the 2012, while dying of cancer, he still triumphed, this time garnering 55%.


3. On the rare occasions when Chávez suffered a political defeat (e.g., the December 2007 referendum on constitutional changes), he accepted the loss immediately. It’s true that Chávez engaged in certain practices that are open to criticism, such as gerrymandering and using executive decrees to get around congressional opposition. But these practices are common in many actually-existing democracies, including the US, and hardly constitute evidence that Chávez was a dictator.

4. Chávez’s electoral success was not due to electoral fraud. The Venezuelan opposition (which supported a military coup against Chávez in 2002) and US mainstream media frequently level this charge, but there is no credible to support it. Jimmy Carter said, “Of the 92 elections that we’ve monitored [at the Carter Center], I would say the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world.”

5. The reason Chávez was so successful politically is because he implemented some of the same sorts of policies Socialists support. After Chávez took office, the Venezuelan state more than spending on health and education. (Sure this was made possible by the high price of oil from 2003 to 2008, but it was also possible because of Chávez’s success in reasserting state control over the oil sector, which was quasi-privatized in the 1990s.)

6. The policies implemented under Chávez led to vast improvements in access to health care, education, housing, and pensions. Poverty in Venezuela was cut in half between 2003 and 2008, with extreme poverty falling by 72%.

7. Chávez also made progress on the issue a lot of Socialists care the most about: inequality. By 2012 Venezuela was the most equitable in Latin America.

8. While you haven’t declared that you want to build “twenty-first century socialism,” Chávez’s Bolivarian Revolution bears at least some resemblance to the type of “political revolution” you claim to favor. In 1998, when Chávez was first elected, turnout was just 63%, one of the lowest percentages in Venezuela’s democratic history. In Chávez’s last election, it was 81% — the highest percentage since 1988, when voting in Venezuela was still mandatory. In December 2013, 59% of registered voters went to the ballot box for local elections — a higher turnout than every US presidential election since 1968.

There was also a significant in Venezuelans’ interest in politics during Chávez’s time in office. In the three years before Chávez took office, Venezuelans’ interest in politics was consistently below the Latin American average (by 7–8% each year). Since 2003, Venezuelans’ interest in politics has been consistently above the Latin American average. In 2013, the year Chávez died, the percentage of Venezuelans who expressed interest in politics (47%) was the highest in Latin America and far higher than the Latin American average (28%).

9. Under Chávez, Venezuela made significant, if contradictory, progress towards the goal of becoming a “participatory democracy.” This was done through the establishment of numerous types of participatory institutions: communal councils, health and water committees, communes, participatory budgeting, and more. These institutions are not perfect, but they have undoubtedly fosstered greater decision-making power for ordinary Venezuelans.

10. The left were and are active participants in a messy and imperfect but inspiring and profoundly important attempt to forge a radical transformation. Chávez engaged millions of people in a democratic process of far-reaching reform. Chavez's championing of the poor came at the expense of Venezuela's middle class, which he branded as "esqualidos", the weak ones.


The RW hated what Chavez did, they disrespected his achievements because he threatened the neo-liberal consensus, yes he went to far by nominating new members of the supreme court (oh Trump did that)

So why on earth would any leftist criticise his achievements?

If you can be bothered read a RW piece about Chavez and you will see the same tropes aimed at Corbyn. Antisemitism being one of them, you will obviously hear him be called the M word.....shock horror, not the M word.

BTW i cant find any evidence of Starmer criticising Chavez, perhaps he does a Socialist bone in his body or is that stupid he doesnt know where Venezuela is.


US-Led Economic War, Not Socialism, Is Tearing Venezuela Apart (mintpressnews.com) here read this.
Wherever you've copied that from it very conveniently ignores the fact that his policies are responsible for the catastrophic decline in his country. Socialism, applied as per its definition, has never worked anywhere, its not adopted now because the evidence against it is overwhelming.
The link at the bottom simply blames oil prices, yet this hasn't devastated other producers, it then, laughably cites Cuba and the Soviet Union as successes, it even, unbelievably says that the situation in the country has improved, this is patent nonsense.
Still, this has little to do with Starmer, who I believe will be in longer than you state, but anything can happen.
 
He is coming out of this rather well, nothing to do with hindsight , boris knew about the mutation on wed when he did his turn at the dispatch box on wed , starmer has him stuttering and acting the buffoon so he doesnt have to answer questions
 
What I would like to see is Starmer announce as Labour Party policy as soon as possible that there will be a public inquiry into the award of government procurement contracts since 2016, with the possibility of criminal prosecutions to follow. From the award of shipping contracts to companies with no ships and no experience to the award of PPE provision contracts to Tory party donors while offers of help from plastics manufacturers went unanswered, the stench of corruption from this current government is unbearable.
 
What I would like to see is Starmer announce as Labour Party policy as soon as possible that there will be a public inquiry into the award of government procurement contracts since 2016, with the possibility of criminal prosecutions to follow. From the award of shipping contracts to companies with no ships and no experience to the award of PPE provision contracts to Tory party donors while offers of help from plastics manufacturers went unanswered, the stench of corruption from this current government is unbearable.
Any policy would be nice Tbf.
 
Fantastic speech Keith.

Talk about Devolution whilst the countries burns from covid and Brexit. In three sentences he destroyed any chance of Scottish labour winning their elections. Chuck in supporting a no-deal without saying it by not demanding a transition extension. He's the party's John Major without the charisma.

I'm guessing someone has told him to copy Biden and do a daily press conference for the next 3 years.
 
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Talking down to the Scottish isn't exactly a vote winner.

His no combatatative stance is grating everything is we won't oppose this or that.

Bit late to do the brexit means brexit shit, needed that last december
 
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